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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,274
    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Ok, fair enough and thanks for clarifying that. How about we agree to disagree on the question of Solar panels?

    What I really came here for was advice on HVAC, specifically whether a heat pump makes sense in a mild climate like San Diego, and if there are any things to look out for, whether my calculations of converting Therms to BTUs to KWh etc. are in the ballpark, stuff like that.
    xxxxxxxx
    Low/ Minor Energy requirements are indeed shown by the HDD [2,325] and CDD [ 824]

    Description: Fahrenheit-based heating degree days for a base temperature of 65F
    Source: www.degreedays.net
    Station: San Diego, Brown Field Municipal Airport, CA, US (116.98W,32.57N)
    Station ID: KSDM

    Month starting ____ HDD ___ CDD
    10/1/2011 ____ 126 ___ 77
    11/1/2011 ____ 251 ___ 30 1
    12/1/2011 ____ 422 ___ 7 2
    1/1/2012 ____ 324 ___ 38 3
    2/1/2012 ____ 325 ___ 16 4
    3/1/2012 ____ 328 ___ 21 5
    4/1/2012 ____ 233 ___ 25 6
    5/1/2012 ____ 153 ___ 30
    6/1/2012 ____ 100 ___ 50
    7/1/2012 ____ 50 ___ 93
    8/1/2012 ____ 6 ___ 214
    9/1/2012 ____ 7 ___ 233
    ____ ___
    xxxxxxxxxxxxx ____ 2325 ___ 834
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,724
    Quote Originally Posted by 54regcab View Post
    Another thing to consider is going all electric and dropping the monthly gas meter fee. In our area it's $28/month just for the meter to sit there no matter if you are using gas or not. We need to save $336/yr by using gas vs. electric before the meter pays for itself. For us we have almost everything gas, because once you pay the meter fees, the gas itself is relatively cheap. If we had electric or heat pump heat the gas meter fees wouldn't be justified.
    +1

    SG, Your thinking resonates with me. You want to own your energy source. Not likely you will ever be able to produce your own gas. Abandon those devices quickly as possible.

    When you look at the solar system production/cost/financed at say 15 years, what is your net cost per kwh? There may not even be a premium given current panel costs and incentives. Furthermore, Producing your own electricity locks in future cost. Seems a natural extension of the RENT or OWN decision.

    People who suggest home ownership is "the way to go" then say renting the energy source that makes that "owned" house habitable baffle me. Anybody else see the hypocracy in this perspective? Sure, renting is cheaper short term. But they wanted home ownership? Doesn't reconcile.

    And to the "great savings from gas" argument, after seeing 100's of energy bills I don't see it from water heaters or dryers except in rare, very high use situations. It never seems significant on peoples bills.

    In fact i wish those devices would go away because of the health and safety issues they present as you tighten homes up (which is how to save REAL money on energy).

    Even if you accept "30% savings" arguments for these devices, look to the numbers rather than the percentage. In other words, how much does $5 a month matter?
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,724
    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Ouch, sounds like you all in OK are getting the raw end of that deal! Here in California, in SDGE territory at lest as far as I can tell there's no "meter fee" at all. For gas I get billed per therm (11 therms for $10.44 last month). On the electric side, it's not so clear on the bill, but I see one source saying it's only a few dollars per month minimum billing.
    Minimum bill? For me that's 3 therms. You saying that if you used nothing your bill would be $3? For us that is about $19.

    If all I had was gas hot water, converting to electric the meter savings would pay the energy cost.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,222
    The gas water heater, dryer, and stove all make sense for me since gas is so cheap. It costs about 1/5 the price of electric. 50 cents per therm on gas vs. 10 cents per KWH electric. I'm stuck with the $28/mo meter charge for my heat, might as well take advantage of all the cheap gas I can. If I were doing everything over I'd consider an all electric home just to get out of the $28 meter fee.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,724
    Where I am gas is 55 cents a therm and electric is 5 cents a Kwh. Double both to include delivery charges.

    The energy value ends up electric cost is 50% more, not 500%. And that's not factoring efficiency loss that is huge for ng in nat draft wh and dryers, and almost non existent for electric. This, combined with the fact dryers and water heaters don't take a big piece of the energy pie, help explain why "savings" are hard to see.

    Let's look at this being generous on both consumption and savings - if wh & dryer consumption were 1/3, and savings was 1/3, 1/3 of 1/3 is 1/9th. Pretty insignificant. Not significant enough to be confident the savings actually exist. Wouldnt take much variation in the calculation for savings to go to 0.

    Again, I assumed there were big savings, and looked for it. Over and over again I couldn't find it. Now I don't believe it exists.

    Imo, definitely not significant enough for all the downside. Not even worth the CO risk.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,222
    Delivery charges DON'T double for me on the gas side. The $28/mo meter fee covers it. 10cents per KWH includes deliver fees witch vary a lot with usage. Electricity price in summer varies, 5 cents per KWH except 2-7pm weekdays when it goes to an average of 22 cents. The gas stove pays off because dinner is typically cooked during the most expensive time of day for electricity.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,724
    You have tou rates? Awesome!

    That's some precious electric! You might look at Solar, should be able to get it for 9-13 cents per kw produced. And that modeling has pretty high confidence (unlike HPwES saving projections)
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,222
    Actually we have variable peak pricing, 22 cents is just an average of the 2-7 peak.
    http://www.ogepet.com/programs/smarthours.aspx

    Hard to justify solar for 25 hours per week. The rest of the hours are at 5 cents.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Morgan Hill Ca.
    Posts
    1,219
    You also have to take into account the added value to the home as far as resale. Equity is hard to come by these days.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,724
    Quote Originally Posted by 54regcab View Post
    Actually we have variable peak pricing, 22 cents is just an average of the 2-7 peak.
    http://www.ogepet.com/programs/smarthours.aspx

    Hard to justify solar for 25 hours per week. The rest of the hours are at 5 cents.
    That's a very interesting price plan. How do you know what tier you'd be charged?

    If you have a slight westerly roof, and they credit you 22 to 46 cents per kwh produced during those periods, it might easily cost justify. Solar Pathfinder analysis can figure that out.

    Also there is a social benefit of taking pressure off the grid during periods of peak demand. Every kwh your panels produce, used by you or your neighbors, saves +/- 3 kwh that does not have to be generated.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,222
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    That's a very interesting price plan. How do you know what tier you'd be charged?

    If you have a slight westerly roof, and they credit you 22 to 46 cents per kwh produced during those periods, it might easily cost justify. Solar Pathfinder analysis can figure that out.

    Also there is a social benefit of taking pressure off the grid during periods of peak demand. Every kwh your panels produce, used by you or your neighbors, saves +/- 3 kwh that does not have to be generated.
    OG&E sends an email/text/phone message to customers a day in advance. Tuesday's price is sent Monday before 5:00pm.
    On days it's cloudy/rainy OG&E typically calls 5 or 9 cent peaks. On days over 100 degrees is when they do the 46 cent peaks. OG&E is the nationwide "pilot program" for widespread VPP and demand response thermostats. Never before has such a program been implemented on such a large scale.
    http://www.oge.com/residential-custo...martHours.aspx

    It would be interesting to see how long payback time would be, especially since solar panels are working the hardest during times of peak demand. 2KW of panels would handle my 2 ton central A/C unit, we have plenty of south and west facing roof.
    Last edited by 54regcab; 10-22-2012 at 10:40 PM.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,724
    First step is to understand the net metering agreement. Will they credit you the retail rate?

    Is there state or utility incentive?

    IMO, I want 15 year financing (panels are warranted 25 years), then break annual cost into cost per kwh produced. I guess in your case I'd want annual electric cost now vs annual cost including panel financing. Ie; current annual $1200, if panel option means $1200 that'd be a yes. $1500, mmmmmm. I don't think I'd pay that premium.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,222
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    First step is to understand the net metering agreement. Will they credit you the retail rate?

    Is there state or utility incentive?

    IMO, I want 15 year financing (panels are warranted 25 years), then break annual cost into cost per kwh produced. I guess in your case I'd want annual electric cost now vs annual cost including panel financing. Ie; current annual $1200, if panel option means $1200 that'd be a yes. $1500, mmmmmm. I don't think I'd pay that premium.
    A big problem in Oklahoma is hail storms. We get a LOT of them in springtime, it's typically what kills roofs here. Roofs never "wear out" they are hail damaged before their warrantied life is up. Hail would destroy the expensive solar panels well before their 25yr life expectancy, I don't think warranty would cover it.

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