Bluon r-G8 Refrigerant....
Does anyone know what this stuff really is? Has anyone used it or know anything about it? Had some sales guy from a competitor company try to sell my customer on replacing the refrigerant in their A/C Units with this stuff. Claims they can save 15-30% on energy savings by reduced amp draw on the compressor. Also claims that its a direct drop in replacement for R-22 and R-410A, no need to flush the system or change anything other than the refrigerant. They stated that they charge by superheat (I Suppose they are talking about a fixed metering device system.) When questioned about a TXV I guess the guy hesitated.
I can't seem to find anything legitimate regarding this product. Though I've just started my research, I haven't found anything mentioned on any other site or EPA etc.... Can anyone shed some light on this???
My customer agreed to let them put their hands on (1) of the A/C Units as a trial run against better judgement. In return, they want my customer to provide a written statement on a company letterhead stating that they too were skeptics and were amazed at the performance of this refrigerant (Or whatever it is.) I personally think its a bunch of hoopla and gimmics and hope they destroy my customers equipment and voids every warranty imaginable with the use of this product.
Thanks in advance....
BTW - Here's a link to the product in question. http://bluonenergy.com/products.html
First I heard of R-G8 but sure sounds like all the other HC stuff that is out there.
“If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”
Any further info?
Have there been any further developments with the Bluon r-G8 product discussion in refrigeration circles, any further field tests?
Has anyone been provided a TP chart, or and UL listing or related data?
What ever happened with this? Have you gotten any new information from your customer?
Originally Posted by ems4ty
They dropped it like a bad habit. Customer never went through with the deal so I have no further information. I wouldn't touch it, but thats because I still don't know anything about it. With all these "new" refrigerants out there, its hard to keep track sometimes.
“ems4ty” I ran into your thread some time ago and was fortunate to have some experience with the Bluon r-G8 through some of the development processes that have come over the last couple of years. I thought I would share with you some of the updates as I understand them. Have you gathered any more knowledge on your end?
I was able to work with Control Air Conditioning, the team from California that was doing field testing for a new refrigerant called Bluon r-G8 and was invited back recently to witness the latest product called TdX 20. As I understand it, TdX 20 is the commercially ready version that came from the Bluon r-G8 product development project a couple of years ago. Many of early expected attributes of the items you listed in your post are still relevant. In addition, TdX 20 causes no ozone depleting issues and has one of the lowest GWP ratings. The product is a direct refrigerant replacement for R22 equipment requiring no oil change or TXV installation with a straightforward R22 evacuation and recovery and a re-charge of 95-100% of the recovered R22 charge. They have installed TdX 20 in several side by side units in order to review the product’s performance. They have logged unit performance experiences to date that are producing delta T performance comparable to R22 and a reduction in energy consumption estimated to be 5 to 35% depending on the equipment type and heat load. Thus far, with the data that they have shared with me, I have been impressed with the product’s performance and plan to continue looking over their test data for more improvement.
In my opinion, Bluon Energy is keeping tight control over who is installing and testing the products performance to assure the customer that he is not getting the ‘gimmick’. The units get before and after testing and it is up to the customer to monitor energy usage and the meter doesn’t produce any less than fact. As you stated there is plenty of product that is sold in our industry that does nothing but ruin something that could have been repaired or renewed using proper refrigeration practices. I for one am glad to see someone develop a true direct drop in refrigerant that does not degrade performance and saves money in the process. So far there have been no claims of ‘ruined’ units or warranty issues. Hope this answers some of the questions that we have had for a few years now. Thanks!
Still Crazy after all these years.
Way to bump up 1 1/2 year old thread.
Originally Posted by koolaid747
Which sales trainee program did this sales pitch come from?
This stuff is nothing more than R-134a with 1-5% vegetable and nuts oil blend. They already sell something like it at auto parts store, which is 134a with POE added intended for R-12 system retrofit to help with oil return. 134a is NOT SNAP approved for retrofit use in an R-22.
Putting R-134a in a R-22 system will severely degrade capacity. I don't know about using vegetable oil in a refrigeration system. It will probably work, but I would be concerned that it would turn into a sticky gummy stuff after some time.
They've got a bunch of sham patent applications that's full of sales pitch and it's one of the most clueless, dumbest thing I've read in a long time.
So yeah, that tells you its just R-134a with 1-5% oil.
One possible composition of the inventive subject matter is the novel Bluon™ TdX™. Bluon TdX comprises a mixture of approximately 95-99 wt % of 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane (i.e., r-134a) at least partially complexed with approximately 1-5 wt % of the oil blend
410A and 134a are made to replace R-113? Clearly, it was some gibberish put together by amateurs.
The significant leakage problems with r-410a or r-134a are due to their smaller molecular geometry than the Freon 113 they were designed to replace
These amateurs be calling latent capacity a waste capacity. In other words, you lose humidity control. The system loses so much capacity that coil probably runs at 55 or 60F running 134a in a 22 system.
The amount of energy taken up by turning water vapor in the atmosphere into a liquid (enthalpy of condensation) is rather large, approximately 2.27 million J/kg (joules per kilogram). It is more than ten times more enthalpy than any refrigerant used inside a system. There is a large energy drain as moisture or ice reduces air interaction with the coils of a refrigeration system, making them even less efficient at removing heat from the air. A significant benefit of compositions of the inventive subject matter (e.g., Bluon TdX) is that it produces less than ⅓ of the condensation that standard air conditioning systems produce, thereby increasing a refrigeration system's efficiency and cooling efficacy.
I really like this line:
They are actually telling you that the performance is so piss poor that it cannot even condense the required amount of moisture from the air.
Originally Posted by ICanHas
Thanks for the update. There's a lot of development out there and a lot of companies just trying to make their mark with new products. Good to hear all is well. Me personally though, I hung up my HVAC toolbag a year ago after 15 years of mechanical service and now do full time Building Automation as a Systems Integrator working with Tridium Niagara AX programming environments. Thanks again for the update though.
"ICanHas" "Way to bump up 1 1/2 year old thread." I am not sure what you meant by this. I was really responding to an open and unfinished question posed by "ems4ty" and because it is an open forum, anyone else that had an interest in his original question. I didn't read anything in the posting rules that a thread had an expiration date on it, so I responded in public rather than sending him an email.
"Which sales trainee program did this sales pitch come from?" Again, I don't understand where you are coming from accusing me of trying to sell something. I believe that I was clear in my post that was able to witness some actual units under operation with this product and I reported what I saw. I am not trying to sell anything, just lucky enough to see the results of a product in development in our industry that has good potential.
"This stuff is nothing more than R-134a with 1-5% vegetable and nuts oil blend." What I witnessed is a product that has similar pressures to R-22. The TDX 20 is a different blend then the r-g8 product. I have no idea on what all of that patent stuff is. I am not a chemical engineer nor do I want to get into that avenue. In my opinion, I could care less if they made this stuff out of Sue Bee Honey or some sort of a space age chemical that NASA abandoned, if it does what they profess it supposed to do, does it really make any difference what it is made of?
"Clearly, it was some gibberish put together by amateurs". Again I can't help but feel you were a little negative toward me and the manufacturer of this product. As I stated to the OP in my response, I for one am glad to see someone develop a true direct drop in refrigerant that does not degrade performance and saves money in the process. I have used just about all of the available R-22 replacements and they all degrade system performance and cost the customer more in the long run.
If you would like for me to join in a negative bashing contest, let's open another thread on people that use or sell flammable refrigerants! Have a great day!
Still Crazy after all these years.
Another strategic sales pitch thread!
How many of these do we have to endure?
Reminds me of the "ice cold" thread
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"Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid"
Originally Posted by koolaid747
I actually skimmed through the patent application of theirs. It is full of errors and cluelessness I've not quite seen one so negligent. R-113 was replaced by 134a? huh? They've got supply and return backwards in places too.
Originally Posted by kamersoutdoor