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  1. #14
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    In my personal opinion WebCTRL with current generation ALC controllers is the number one system on the market. As an integration front end it would not be my primary choice. But from some of the threads on this board I would not recommend spudders to any clients at this point.

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  2. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blabath View Post
    Fair enough KP. I was just trying to point out that it was possible to add other vendors to a WebCtrl system.
    Chad, I have a job with Niagara AX and Spyder that is doing just fine. My only complaint is that the customer and other control companies are locked out of the logic programming.
    Now... I'll take some heat for this... Most control companies protect their interest in their customers by NOT letting others do any programming at all. They protect their logic. They protect their graphics. The big problem with that is that sometimes, someone will have a better way to complete the control sequence on a piece of equipment or build a better graphic page for a job. It should also be easy to add a physical point to a job and the logic without having to necessarily go back to the installing contractor. This should include other contractors and include the customer, who the has to pay big bucks to have the contractor back. Often the control guy's ego gets in the way and he refuses to implement these changes.
    ALC WebCtrl comes with all necessary programs to do whatever you want to tweak programming and/or graphic pages as long as you have an administrative password, which the customer should insist on at install. As far as I know, Web Pro AX does not come with the Niagara package.
    I don't understand why the customer and other control companies are locked out of the programming? Can you elaborate.

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    In my personal opinion WebCTRL with current generation ALC controllers is the number one system on the market. As an integration front end it would not be my primary choice. But from some of the threads on this board I would not recommend spudders to any clients at this point.

    kontrol out

    I don't have anything against WebCTRL and it seems to be a good setup....but my customer likes Niagara framework and we happen to sell it (Win, Win) Yes, Spudders AKA:Spyders have had there problems and sore spots but Honeywell is serious about getting those issues resolved and they have offered excellent support to us on them. For the money they are a great programmable controller!

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    ... I would not recommend spudders ...
    Pfft ... LOL ... made me chuckle
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by blabath View Post
    ... My only complaint is that the customer and other control companies are locked out of the logic programming.
    Hmmm, this shouldnt be the case ... unless... The AX supervisor and/or JACEs dont have the 'spudder' jars installed. (there are some good reasons for not installing them in a JACE)

    Meaning that the installer only have them on their laptops or something like that.

    notwithstanding the above, reckon that you should have all the tools in the box there.

    ... a little digging and a few emails might get you a long way.
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    Bill,

    Reread my post.
    You can't place a MSTP device on a ARC156 network. Yes you can configure newer ALC controllers as MSTP but no dealer I know sets up their networks like this.

    kontrol out
    The site I'm sitting in front of now has 693 ALC devices, all bacnet MS/TP. Not including third party MSTP devices. Yes, all on the same MS/TP bus.

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by control$ View Post
    The site I'm sitting in front of now has 693 ALC devices, all bacnet MS/TP. Not including third party MSTP devices. Yes, all on the same MS/TP bus.
    Physically impossible. MSTP (IEA-485) has limitation of 127 masters and a total of 255 per bus if using slaves as well. And ALC mac addressing only goes to 99 , how are other 500+ controllers addressed on the bus?

    kontrol out

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    Physically impossible. MSTP (IEA-485) has limitation of 127 masters and a total of 255 per bus if using slaves as well. And ALC mac addressing only goes to 99 , how are other 500+ controllers addressed on the bus?

    kontrol out
    On 52 routers. My point being if the customer requested the site to be MS/TP...it would be MS/TP. It's not a reason not to use ALC, and cheaper then starting over. Hang anything on the bus, proprietary argument gone. You already have all the programming,graphic,database software built in.

  9. #22
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    Only issue is that older generation (S/UNI/M/LGR) only do ARC156 or CMnet. Yes on current generation (SE/ZN/ME/LGR) you can set them up as MSTP, but this is no help for the OP.
    Also doing this MSTP/ARC156 conversion after the initial install would entail taking all the controllers off the network, set jumpers at each controller (those VAV boxes will be fun), change the network type in Sitebuilder then reconnect all the controllers. I don't feel that many if any non-ALC technician/programmers could accomplish this without some hiccups.

    If we get this moved to Pro I could add some more "issues", but not happening out here.

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  10. #23
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    Jul 2005
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    Pittsburgh, PA
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    SOME UNIs are obsolete, Uni 16 and 32 are still somewhat around, LGEs are still available too, UNI 59s and 30s are long gone. All of these controllers that you mention are still supported as far as repairable. As mentioned, the emulator driver allows you to put a ZN right on your U network too. U341V+ were good controllers except for the damper motor failures, ZNs are more reliable. U cards were a sub area type network which I never cared for but it worked, if you expand and use ZNs it will be nmore reliable and faster. Your U net is max 38.8K baud with an even slower sub area network, the ZN is 156K baud.

    You can replace it all with something else, but IMO you get what you pay for. I don't think that you'll find a more versitile system. All of your current equipment can be run on current WebCtrl 5.5 software. ALC also just relaxed the rules of zone module controllers therefore making them even more flexible.

    I know the Service Manager in Atlanta, he's a good guy, is that who you're dealing with?
    HotRod


    Controls..some days your a hero, some days your a zero. Direct acting since 1992.

  11. #24
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    Apr 2007
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    Amarillo by mornin'
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod53 View Post
    ...I don't think that you'll find a more versitile system. All of your current equipment can be run on current WebCtrl 5.5 software. ALC also just relaxed the rules of zone module controllers therefore making them even more flexible.
    The OP stated the site is worried about controller failure and not being able to find replacements, but there is and to me is one of the big things that I think ALC has almost always had is a migration path. Like you had previously mentioned a U card goes south, load the emu driver for the newest version of hardware out and drop it right in place of the old u card. You don't have to change the program-it's virtually seamless. UNI (half-router) craps out, the soon to be driver for the AMR (yet another router) can be put in place of the failed UNI.

    The newest drivers for the LGR's (Router) now do not count 3rd party BACnet points as integration points. BIG, BIG step in the right direction. So if you want to start adding other devices that are not ALC to a LGR...let 'er rip because there is NO limitation now.

    Also, there is the new frakin driver for the LGR. Since LGE's are being phased out and for those sites that are still "Legacy" sites there is now a migration path for those situations also. You put a LGR in place of a failed LGE and not only does it communicate legacy communication but you can run MS/TP, ARCnet and legacy out of one router. Does JCI or anyone else do anything like that? (BESIDES USING A JACE!)

    We have a very large school district and they still have at some schools exec.3 stuff which is very old. Ever heard of a P20 module? Still running, oh and works with the newest version of WebCTRL software.

    I guess all in all the site does not know there are options as devices start to fail and to me would be throwing money away to just rip it out and replace it. I understand that to you, your option is the way to go...but at what cost?
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post

    The newest drivers for the LGR's (Router) now do not count 3rd party BACnet points as integration points. BIG, BIG step in the right direction. So if you want to start adding other devices that are not ALC to a LGR...let 'er rip because there is NO limitation now.
    X, this is great news! There were two things that would stop me from recommending ALC as my first choice as a BACnet integration front end and it appears they have fixed one of them!

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  13. #26
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    Apr 2007
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    Amarillo by mornin'
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    X, this is great news! There were two things that would stop me from recommending ALC as my first choice as a BACnet integration front end and it appears they have fixed one of them!

    kontrol out
    Yes, it is great news. We couldn't believe it either! To take it a step further, the newest drivers also work for ALL OF THE MODULES. So, take a SE 6104a and set it on a non-ALC network. Bring in BACnet points directly to the module. No more expressions.

    Think about it...you now have a fully programmable controller that is BACnet in and out (BACnet PID's, points ect.), can ride on anyones MS/TP network, you can have a display connected to it (BACview6) and keep the program and the graphic in the module, so you don't have to worry about not having the program for it anymore. You don't have to have a OWS connected to it either. You can walk right up to it and plug into it and use the Field Assistant software tool.

    BTW, what is the other thing you don't like about ALC for intergration?
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

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