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  1. #14

    Conclusions/Summary after having everyone out

    The chimney folks came-out today as did the second tech per my previous post. The chimney is in the same condition as when it was built in 1952, meaning there is no wear or damage. However, they noted it has a number of turns, etc in it and are providing a quote for lining the chimney as an option to produce more consistent venting. They would need to break-out brick around the chimney, etc. The quote for that job was $$$$ and it's a lot of work. I was impressed with the chimney crew, it's a multiple day job.

    The conclusions to the problem seem to be the following:

    (1) Carrier inducer motor performed for about 10 years at top performance and other than a few DSS resets the last few years per my previous note, the unit operated. It became more flaky recently. Apparently a straight RPM measurement wasn't enough to detect the problem. Simply removing it and putting it back-in, per my previous post, appeared to change the performance of the unit. Don't know why-- bearings, orientation on axle due to bearings, don't know. Lesson learned-- RPM measurement alone may not be enough to diagnose a bad inducer motor, perhaps the RPM was changing at points in-time not being measured or there are other factors in alignment, etc. Again I'm not a pro, I watched the pro's try to figure it out, and they themselves couldn't explain why.

    (2) The inducer motor coupled with chimney flue adapter and the turns in the chimney does create "more work" for the unit and as others have said. However, no CO leaks were ever detected anywhere in the house (detectors in multiple areas of the house around chimney and elsewhere.) Nor did any tech working in the house ever detect CO.

    (3) It appears that replacing the inducer motor will bring the unit back to where it was in performance; however, lining the chimney would help if venting out the chimney.

    (4) I didn't get quotes yet, but if I want to replace this unit in the future with a high efficiency, as I understand it in this area they don't vent it in the chimney, they vent it out a back wall.

    If anything else is learned, I will update the thread. THanks again fro everyone's help.
    Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 10-15-2012 at 09:32 PM. Reason: pricing

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    nebraska
    Posts
    1,629
    Before you spend that much on a liner look into the cost of furnace and water heater replacement. I'm thinking replacements might be cheaper than the liner .

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    3,489
    Quote Originally Posted by martyinlincoln View Post
    Before you spend that much on a liner look into the cost of furnace and water heater replacement. I'm thinking replacements might be cheaper than the liner .
    I agree.

    That price to line chimney (which will be removed soon- read posting rules) doesn't even include replacing the single wall venting or inducer motor. I'd think about upgrading furnace to 95 AFUE & vent it to outside wall & call it a day.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
    Posts
    2,627
    Quote Originally Posted by precision hvac View Post
    I agree.

    That price to line chimney (which will be removed soon- read posting rules) doesn't even include replacing the single wall venting or inducer motor. I'd think about upgrading furnace to 95 AFUE & vent it to outside wall & call it a day.
    He'll need install a side-vent W/H as well.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,578

    Time to go

    Quote Originally Posted by George2 View Post
    He'll need install a side-vent W/H as well.
    Sometimes it is time to say goodbuy to that 13 year old unit.

    Install a new direct vent furnace and WH.
    Aire Serv of SW Connecticut- Gas heat, dual fuel and central a/c systems installed and serviced

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
    Posts
    2,627
    Quote Originally Posted by meany_greeny View Post
    Pictures show chimney adapter, burners, dss switch etc
    The adapter is basically a draft diverter to allow indoor air to help keep the clay liner warm. However, when the chimney is on the outside of the home, and the weather/winds are such, it doesn't always do the job. Duh................

    This, along with the vent "rise" and single wall venting, compounds the issue. When venting into a chimney (that's on the outside of the home) a liner should always be installed along with double wall furnace venting.

    Most, if not all, of the service calls could have been prevented if the furnace had been properly installation as per the instructions.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,578

    Time to go

    Quote Originally Posted by George2 View Post
    He'll need install a side-vent W/H as well.
    Sometimes it is time to say goodbuy to that 13 year old unit.

    Install a new direct vent furnace and WH.
    Aire Serv of SW Connecticut- Gas heat, dual fuel and central a/c systems installed and serviced

  8. #21

    Keeping facts accurate in thread for posterity sake

    Thanks to everyone for their help. Some recent posts are inaccurate so I want to try to keep the facts right for anyone reading it in the future.

    - nowhere in the carrier instructions does it state the chimney cannot be outside wall. Also note my chimney is brick, block, and clay. So the statement made by a poster saying outside wall chimney is wrong is not in agreement with carriers own instructions.

    - other then b- vent for a 5 foot run in utility area, the installation is correct by carriers standards. 2 techs and then a third salesperson who was also a tech last night all agreed with that.

    - chimney adapters are common in this area

    - a steel chimney liner in a chimney like this, per quote, is excessive. Not all chimneys are liner friendly and clay tiles are not automatically bad. The manufacturers created these products to support clay and all techs confirmed they are used extensively in this area. YES steel lines chimneys remove variables etc but not everyone has one here in this area. The chimney inspector said chimney is as it was built and used for the last 60 years in the house. For 60 years no CO in this house detected or killing anyone, we know the previous owners.

    - the inducer motor appears to be the issue, intermittent issue.

    - the unit is 11 years old, not 13. The unit only started showing issues in last few years.

    - yes I agree on high efficiency in future is good idea but even that causes tear up in the house to run the pipe, brick block houses and below grade basements don't make for an easy run.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,317
    Quote Originally Posted by meany_greeny View Post
    Thanks to everyone for their help. Some recent posts are inaccurate so I want to try to keep the facts right for anyone reading it in the future.

    - nowhere in the carrier instructions does it state the chimney cannot be outside wall. Also note my chimney is brick, block, and clay. So the statement made by a poster saying outside wall chimney is wrong is not in agreement with carriers own instructions.

    That might be so, but instructions can't anticipate every possible real-time configuration, can they?

    - other then b- vent for a 5 foot run in utility area, the installation is correct by carriers standards. 2 techs and then a third salesperson who was also a tech last night all agreed with that.

    But you still have a problem with rollout trips, correct? Or have you not had any further rollouts since the inducer motor was removed and reinstalled? If not, perhaps the seals for the inducer motor blower assembly were leaking, and the removal and reinstallation of the assembly corrected that problem.


    - the inducer motor appears to be the issue, intermittent issue.
    Have the inducer motor assembly replaced by your pro, then, if you're confident no other venting issues exist. If it failed once, it will fail again, even if it at the moment appears to be working normally.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    518
    Id be leary of home Co detectors ive seen a study where it concluded that there allmost all rieliant on high humidity levels to carry the Co to the detector which is as we know is an issue. the problem when heating w/ gas forced air (a dry heat)!! in fact in the study only 1 unit passed their test

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
    Posts
    2,470
    Let this be a warning to all consumers. If you hire a contractor without a combustion analyzer or they don't use it everytime they work on your furnace, you are asking for trouble. No one can tell if an appliance is performing correctly without one. They are gambling on your life!
    captain CO

  12. #25
    All sound like excellent points. Btw not one tech came out with their own co meter. I am buying one just for regular testing I addition to detectors in house. I did look at the one co experts detector. Again no indications of co ever in house, understand at same time the points raised here about effectiveness of consumer models. Good point on various conditions, on that point nobody had outside chimney concerns that came. On inducer motor tech surprised me by removing it and putting it back sealed with his caulk rather than a new gasket. Regardless seal of inducer motor seems to be a consideration, unit will not be used until new inducer motor and seal installed.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    In a boiler room
    Posts
    7,068
    Quote Originally Posted by meany_greeny View Post
    All sound like excellent points. Btw not one tech came out with their own co meter.....
    And that is very sad.

    Any tech with NCI CO/Combustion training and a combustion analyzer could have completely diagnosed your problem in about 5 minutes on the first service call. But until such training is mandatory you will get techs that will guess and guess and guess and guess, since they don't know any better.

    Go to www.stopcarbonmonoxide.com and see if there is a certified contractor in your area. They can fix your problem.

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