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Thread: BACnet.....

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    102
    I would like to ask a simple question...... Even though Automated Logic is BACnet... I would like to know if ALC WebControl is proprietary... If you are not quite sure what I'm asking...Let me ask this way.... Multiple facilities, multi manufactures, multi protocols (proprietary and Lon included), is it wise to lock into ALC WebControl to bring all this into one platform only because it's BACnet...I know there has been great debate on the Lon vs. BACnet debate, I don't want to debate that issue....I want to Debate the ALC WebControl issue... I would like a simple...

    Yes, it's proprietry because.....
    No, it's not proprietry because.....
    Yes, it's wise because.....
    No, it's not wise because.....


    Now Lets here it...
    IF YOU BUILD IT...THEY WILL COME!!!...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    226
    Well IMHO,
    Yes it is of course prop. as you can only get it from ACL, and only the ACL contractor that has your territory.

    I dont think it works very well with Lon, no I have not used their Lon gateway, just what I heard.

    The best control system is one that gives you multi vendor/contractor choice. As far as I know ALC has exclusive territories and the dealers respect it well, so if you do make this choice make sure you realy love your local ALC contractor!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Newport News, VA
    Posts
    15
    ALC may have the WEBserver front end, but there is a way to work around their maintaining the system. At each site you install that is not ALC, furnish an industrial PC with your webserver software in it. Create your graphics and links to your controllers. After all this is essentially what the Jace panel is doing. Go back to the customers ALC webserver and setup your site as one of his "Favorites". You can also justify this tye of installation as a distributed installation with multiple vendors capable of providing competitive pricing. You know that once any problem appears, the ALC provider is going to blame you. Performing the installation in the avove manner insulates you from this finger-pointing & bickering.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    NICE.... I'll have to save this link for later.

    True bacnet interoperability at work.
    Makes the case strongly for a open protocol device level network, preferrably with a common network tool.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    52
    Remember also that carrier commercial systems has purchased ALC and is currently redesigning the carrier comfort network into the ALC product line and all carrier service branches will have the ability to install and service the future product line.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The Great White North
    Posts
    47
    ccnman,

    Is that the Carrier/ALC rumor of the month? Will Carrier's service branch have the ALC product line available for sale on their shelves?

    I heard a couple of weeks ago that Carrier wasn't going to mess with ALC because it was a very profitable entity. ALC is buying selected local dealers.... so maybe they'll go in-house with everything.

    What'cha know ccnman?

    ddcfan, an answer the original question; WebCTRL as a product rocks, but if your area only has one ALC dealer; you may end up with the escalating price of future work on your site, 'cause they "think" they've got you. If you keep your options open with multiple BACnet lines that you like, that you can interface into your WebCTRL server, it may help your ALC pricing. Make sure everyone knows they'll have to be competitive with their pricing. But I'm sure that goes with any other BACnet line. ALC's WebCTRL front-end package is cutting edge in my opinion, so if you like it, go for it. Yeah it's proprietary, but you can write your own programming to bring whatever else you want in. Your gateway router may need to be upgraded to handle the additional points your trying to map in. ALC has a 25 point router (lgr25) and a 1000 point router (LGR1000). So it's all about how many points you're planning on bringing into the WebCTRL server. ALC is going to get their money, by selling you the point count you want to bring in from other vendors. They won't give them to you for free.

    Just keep a hand on your wallet.... and let them see you've got your hand there


    [Edited by automation_tech on 10-18-2006 at 03:29 PM]

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    52
    carrier is currently training all sales,project's and service reps on the Carrier IVU version of ALC's font end. the LGR for carrier is a 1200 pt device which allows carrier ccn to come in as a 485 port.there are two jobs in the boston area already commissioned by carrier....so its a slow process and it may be different for different carrier branch's where there is really no controls presence...but the whole ccn product line from chiller pics , all ahu's and vav/v3 pic products are being redesigned bacnet to allow full integration into the LGR's..in addition to the 6400 module...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    102
    Been MIA for a while... It was interesting to read this thread after almost 7 years... When I posed this question, I was at a site with 12 different proprietary systems in a very large government installation...I was tinkering with a Tridium system and we were going to introduce ALC to the site.... Fast forward to today... I am no longer at same location but I am at a very large government installation with several buildings with All having just ALC. And just as the above response, the ALC exclusive territory is being pushed by the ALC rep even though the promise was that there would be multiple ALC vendors... I'm sure the pricing is not as completive as it should be...and all the buildings have already gone thru several upgrades to the LGRs... definitely there is benefits to a single platform as far as maintaining and installing but still not convinced this is the fiscally best solution for the long term for government installations... Was the Bacnet vs Lon debate ever won? ... lol
    IF YOU BUILD IT...THEY WILL COME!!!...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    102
    ***Competitive***
    IF YOU BUILD IT...THEY WILL COME!!!...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    307
    "the ALC exclusive territory is being pushed by the ALC rep even though the promise was that there would be multiple ALC vendors"
    - If your local ALC Rep sucks then ALC will suck. I have to compete with 3 other ALC dealers, so it keeps everyone honest. But most small markets don't have multi-dealers. As an owner, you can use any dealer you want to use.

    "Bacnet vs Lon debate ever won?"
    -Still depends on what world you live in. Haven't run into Lon very much lately.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    1,113
    Quote Originally Posted by control$ View Post
    "the ALC exclusive territory is being pushed by the ALC rep even though the promise was that there would be multiple ALC vendors"
    - If your local ALC Rep sucks then ALC will suck. I have to compete with 3 other ALC dealers, so it keeps everyone honest. But most small markets don't have multi-dealers. As an owner, you can use any dealer you want to use.
    Sorry Control$,

    I'll take my Trend system over ALC. LOL!
    If you're too "open" minded, your brains will fall out.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona, United States
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by ccnman View Post
    Remember also that carrier commercial systems has purchased ALC and is currently redesigning the carrier comfort network into the ALC product line and all carrier service branches will have the ability to install and service the future product line.
    Actually Carrier and ALC are both owned by UTC......Carrier techs barely have the ability to work on the UPC cards that come in their chillers....I worked with some UPC cards inside the carrier equipment and the drivers are slightly different.....I have also heard from my local carrier rep is that the Carrier taking over ALC rumor is not true but......BUT UTC is trying to buy all the sole ALC dealers

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