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Thread: new A/C

  1. #14
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    Aug 2008
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    San Clemente, CA
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    I could do the math but prefer to perform my job as professional as possible and this includes checking SC and SH every time I hook up to a system. With 70% of the systems installed not correctly charged with refrigerant our industry is in desperate need of digital manifolds and qualified service techs. Something I see first hand everyday.

  2. #15
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    Apr 2012
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    winnipeg
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    ok.. i charge them by feel then have our tec geek check them... he cant figure out how i chare them with no fancy stuff.... just gauges.....I do however own a set of sman 3 just in case...lol
    it was working.... played with it.... now its broke.... whats the going hourly rate for HVAC repair

  3. #16
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    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmon View Post
    Attachment 315051

    one of many this summer......
    What kind of pad/bracket is that?

  4. #17
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    Mar 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKopp View Post
    I could do the math but prefer to perform my job as professional as possible and this includes checking SC and SH every time I hook up to a system. With 70% of the systems installed not correctly charged with refrigerant our industry is in desperate need of digital manifolds and qualified service techs. Something I see first hand everyday.

    70%....You pulling this number out of your, well you know...

    From my experience you can literally spend an hour dialing in a system for a given load/outside air condition only to have those things change and be one way or another....

    I would be willing to bet that number is much closer to 15% in our area... Bear in mind I don't do ANY residential, only heavy commercial and industrial, but still, 70%....

    I vow to NEVER own a digi manifold set. If I can no longer get a system to run to it's full potential with a quality thermometer and an analog gauge, it will be time to hang up the tools. Mainly because from what you are saying the systems have become smarter than us.....

    You my friend were sold a bill of goods.

    We had to use this POS digi set up for a building survey we did because some property management firm saw some presentation on how you can troubleshoot a system remotely with just the readings from this wonder tool.... Not only that but calculate energy savings based on the repairs.

    Boy were they mistaken, or I guess taken....The data gathered from these things was worth it's weight in used poop tickets..

    If memory serves it was from Honeywell... JMHO We went through later with a few guys with the "primitive method" and found three times the problems.

    GT
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  5. #18
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    Aug 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    70%....You pulling this number out of your, well you know...

    From my experience you can literally spend an hour dialing in a system for a given load/outside air condition only to have those things change and be one way or another....

    I would be willing to bet that number is much closer to 15% in our area... Bear in mind I don't do ANY residential, only heavy commercial and industrial, but still, 70%....

    I vow to NEVER own a digi manifold set. If I can no longer get a system to run to it's full potential with a quality thermometer and an analog gauge, it will be time to hang up the tools. Mainly because from what you are saying the systems have become smarter than us.....

    You my friend were sold a bill of goods.

    We had to use this POS digi set up for a building survey we did because some property management firm saw some presentation on how you can troubleshoot a system remotely with just the readings from this wonder tool.... Not only that but calculate energy savings based on the repairs.

    Boy were they mistaken, or I guess taken....The data gathered from these things was worth it's weight in used poop tickets..

    If memory serves it was from Honeywell... JMHO We went through later with a few guys with the "primitive method" and found three times the problems.

    GT
    Ok I stand corrected it is more like 82% that are not correctly charged. I for one despise government regulations but when they are staring these statistics in the face and are burdened with reducing our state energy consumption one can see why California requires 3rd party HERS inspectors to verify a correct refrigerant charge. We need to be within 3° of factory SC numbers with a TXV system. Not a hard thing to do but surprisingly, our industry lacks the knowledge or know-how to get the job done "correctly".

    Ref: http://www.proctoreng.com/checkme/technical.html

    and there are many other studies... "These results are consistent with previous industry research, from new home construction studies in California."

    You care to back up what you are saying???

  6. #19
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    Mar 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKopp View Post
    Ok I stand corrected it is more like 82% that are not correctly charged. I for one despise government regulations but when they are staring these statistics in the face and are burdened with reducing our state energy consumption one can see why California requires 3rd party HERS inspectors to verify a correct refrigerant charge. We need to be within 3° of factory SC numbers with a TXV system. Not a hard thing to do but surprisingly, our industry lacks the knowledge or know-how to get the job done "correctly".

    Ref: http://www.proctoreng.com/checkme/technical.html

    and there are many other studies... "These results are consistent with previous industry research, from new home construction studies in California."

    You care to back up what you are saying???

    Like I said, I don't do ANY residential AC... You aren't backing ANYTHING up. Your link is an advertisement of sorts... There are more commercial/industrial machines using WAYYY more power than there are residential, so your 82% number is likely skewed....

    Besides that, if the dumb dumb techs you speak of can't get it right with common tools that have been around for over a century, I doubt buying them a digi kit will make them any smarter or more accurate.

    It is the trade making idiots that is the problem, NOT the tools....

    I have found that when we do refrigerant audits on building we maintain, we typically find two or three units out of dozens that have a charge issue, almost always have leaks that get repaired....

    Just because residential central air conditioners have a major efficiency issue don't mean squat to me. There is a much bigger picture.

    I guess the really dumb part is if you really sit down and do the math with run times and power used and how the home is controlled, you are out to solve energy consumption issues in such a small percentage in the grand scheme of things it is like making sure everybody has the tire pressure on their cars within a few PSI of the factory recommended pressure. Does virtually nothing.

    I appreciate what you are saying, but a $400 manifold set does not make better technicians, not by a long shot, what it will do is prevent them from doing it the "hard way" and handicapping them for their entire career...

    I worked with a guy we got from the non union sector a couple of weeks ago and he could not tell me how to check the superheat on a 5 ton package unit, he had been in the trade for seven years.

    Not a bash against the non union sector, but all he ever did was residential.

    He knows now. He also knows how to use a thermometer, a PT chart, a sling psychrometer and an analog gauge... I told him to get digital tools when he learns these very reliable pieces of non technology.


    Sorry for the thread jack.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  7. #20
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    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    Wall mounted ac pads are cool...


    Name:  IMGP3004.JPG
Views: 165
Size:  75.6 KB
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  8. #21
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    San Clemente, CA
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    But California is chasing away all of our industry with CARB and the highest taxes in our country. Interesting perspective and I too understand your points.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKopp View Post
    But California is chasing away all of our industry with CARB and the highest taxes in our country. Interesting perspective and I too understand your points.
    Gonna go out on a limb and say it was some retired engineer turned politician's pet project gone viral, it always is....

    Ever notice that PG&E's energy rebate programs always follow the current environmental issue du jour and have a limited shelf life?

    Think about it...

    When I put solar on my dads house and he got his first utility bill the first thing he did was turn down the temperature on the AC...

    Smoke and mirrors, I have been in California all of my life and work in the heart of Silicon Valley, this is where most of the environmental craziness starts...

    Done any boiler retrofits for air quality yet? When you retro a natural draft boiler to the new assisted low NOX kits, the efficiency drops by up to sometime 15%...Yeah, that's a step in the right direction....


    OP, Sorry for the rant, I will start my own thread to continue the pissing contest...
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  10. #23
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    Oct 2004
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    Central WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    70%....You pulling this number out of your, well you know...

    GT
    Didn't you know? 88% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

    As was said before, to each his own. I like analog gauges and manifolds with 3 hoses and two valves. I do use a digital thermometer as it is easier to access what I am trying to measure, and it is fast.

    I also do check SH and SC on every system. I do get wet bulb with a sling psycrometer, though. *whirls*

  11. #24
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    Jul 2008
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    Rochester NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by syndicated View Post
    What kind of pad/bracket is that?
    Here's a better shot:

    Name:  IMG_0645.JPG
Views: 183
Size:  101.7 KB
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    656
    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    .

    I appreciate what you are saying, but a $400 manifold set does not make better technicians, not by a long shot, what it will do is prevent them from doing it the "hard way" and handicapping them for their entire career...
    Because good tools cause bad techs. Do not get gear wrenches they are to time effiecent and easy.

    I just think its funny when you guys say digital gauges are for dummies or I'm not ever getting those cause I can do math. Your totally missing the point. I'll put this down as a lost cause.

    Nice install btw

    I like the platform.

  13. #26
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    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    Aren't gauge eventually gonna be obsolete anyway?

    It'll be a tablet talking to the equipment which will show current pressures, and a graph of pressures for the last week so you can see when/what events occurred.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

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