ReplyMeanwhile, Alberta ranchers are complaining about water problems, poisoned wells from sour gas, and the lowest water table in memory (mind you, that is happening all over the North American mid west).Originally Posted by amd
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Well, I was born and raised in Nova Scotia in a town with a an aging steel mill and defunct coal mines so I don't have either an Ontario or Toronto centric opinion. I have a clean air issue and if you have to pay $.02/kwh more to get thousands of new jobs and start industries that WILL NOT need to be subsidized in the future, that is a price I am willing to pay. If you want to live in the past while others progress around you, you can still get bags of coal delivered to your door. I had to shovel that stuff into our furnace when I was a kid and it was not fun.
I also had friends with "black lung" and thats no fun either.
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Meanwhile, Alberta ranchers are complaining about water problems, poisoned wells from sour gas, and the lowest water table in memory (mind you, that is happening all over the North American mid west).
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Alberta received equalization payments a grand total of one year. That was the first year of the program. Alberta has paid into it every year, almost the exact amount that Quebec has pulled out. Check your facts.
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Look, I'm not arguing coal is a good idea, an the notion of "clean coal" is a cruel joke.
My point is that the world needs oil, and would prefer to buy it from a secure source not run by a tin pot dictator or have their money support nefarious causes.
Solar is great too, when it works and when it can compete.
You speak of Alberta ranchers with bad wells? What about the people living under wind mills complaining of unexplainable health problems?
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TECHNOLOGY. It moves quickly. Truth today becomes inaccurate dogma in 15 minutes. It's really hard to stay on top of current circumstances.
Remember the early Compact Flourescent bulbs? Not very compact, took a long time to fire, and light quality was terrible more often than not. I still get people referring to the experiences they had with bulbs 20 years ago as excuse to hate CFL's.
Solar panels have gotten so cheap they can compete with the power plant in many areas, even without subsidies.
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Ain't that the truth. Of course CFL will be starting to be phased out as well soon now that LED bulbs are hitting the market.
Solar has come a long way. With some of the recent break throughs the idea of a decentralized power network starts to become a little closer to reality.
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And even with lots of color options on CFL's, I think the LED color options are far superior (at least as of 3 weeks ago...)
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LED's don't have THAT much better lumens/watt than CFL's, so I'm not sure the CFL's will really have a very aggressive phase-out schedule. The also haven't gotten the high-lumen systems out there in any competitive numbers for LED's yet. Just spent quite some time looking for some 100W equivalent dimmable bulbs for my kids rooms, and there is just nothing out there on the led front that can do it yet. Got some 23W dimmable CFL's, and honestly, the color is VERY good on them (3500K, really close to a good halogen bulb). Plus, the UV component of the CFL's really makes their glow-in-the dark stars on the ceiling come to life in a way they never did with the incadescent bulb I replaced... :-)
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Is "dimmable" the failure point? I'm seeing a lot of LED's in commercial spaces that IMO look better than CFL or incand.
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THe main advantages of LED vs CFL is longevity and lack of mercury. At the moment you are absolutely correct about them. They are to expensive and do not have the output to replace halogen, although I'm sure that will be coming in time. That being said the idea have having bulbs last for decades is appealing.
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dimmable is part of the failure point, though that will come. The other failure point, is light density and focus. LED's, having a primary illumination direction, require some extensive lensing/element arrangement to get an even near-360° Light that a traditional incadescent or CFL have. This has been part of the problem in residential adoption - and why companies like Switch have gone with an oil filled light (as well as it's thermal dissipation capabilities) and why phillips is using a remote phosphor surface to emanate light in a more disperse pattern - added complication that still makes their newly displayed 100W equivalent LED household style bulb still use the same amount of power (23W) that the CFL does, but cost 5 times as much. The dimming capability IS better on LED bulbs that support it, being able to got down to near 0% dimming, where CFL's are usually limited to around 15-20% or so.
Commercial spaces, on the other hand, HAVE seen better LED adoption, but that is because they are most likely not limited by the standard household fixture. LED light is perfect for indirect light-bar type applications, and for directional lighting (R20, R30, etc), which are used quite a bit in commercial can lighting. I, personally, have in stalled a lot of LED R20 and LED PAR38 bulbs at work, and I do expect them to last a VERY long time. But, they are directional lights, and are not dimming uses.
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I just switched my entire house over to LED lights in an effort to save on our electric bill.
I am pretty disappointed in the light output as a whole compared to CFL's and incandescent.
You do get used to it though. I had to add a few CFL's back in the mix to even out the lack of lighting, especially in the basement.
Technology will get better with LED's and residential lighting.
UA LU189
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Can you elaborate?
Brand and Model?
Also, will you be tracking energy use? Love to know if you "see" savings, noticeable savings.
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The output is nowhere near the same as a CFL or incandescent bulb, lumen is weak in comparison, noticeably weaker. I also notice a "shaky" or "strobe" affect in the eyes when reading, it's almost seizure like and drives me nuts, the wife doesn't notice it as much. Also anything with movement (like a moth) causes this strobe affect.
I went with the GE Energy Smart bulbs. A mix of 2, 2.5, and 4.5 watt bulbs.
I will only be tracking through my electric bill.
UA LU189
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Thanks!
Electric bill is what I meant. When heavy light users switch form incand to cfl, they tend to "see" the savings. They are significant enought for them to notice without doing complex tracking. That's what I was wondering.
People who change as bulbs burn out don't see savings. Makes sense when you think about it.
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I'm on pretty much total CFL and LED in my house at this point. The few exceptions are the T8's in the garage (a crap load of them), the mini-halogens in my master bedroom and dining room ceiling fans that I haven't found any alternative to, and the 100W halogen wall units on either side of my garage door, that burn at 40% dusk-to-dawn, and 100% with motion - haven't found anything that works as well in those fixtures yet...
I do particularly like the 14/19/32W 3-way CFL's I put in my living room and family room table lamps. At 2700K, they put out a VERY comfortable light, and are much more 'reliable' than a dimmable CFL. (though I think they are still technically dimmable CFL's, but are designed just for the three levels).
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I installed LED's in my living room because heat from the incandescent bulbs was affecting the thermostat nearby. Plus they were 4 original 1925 lamp wall sconces and we use them every night. I figure any amp reduction I can find on the old wiring so good. All major appliances had dedicated circuits already.
Hard to say if the savings are there. Not much tp compare it to. Bigger house, 2 furnaces, more lights, among other things. Our base load...april and october bills is around $70 whereas it was $50 in our last house less than half this size.
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The sun and the wind are selfish - they don't care when we actually need the energy.
It won't ever matter how cheap solar/wind will ever become, because the technology is not suitable for use on the grid.
Wind energy production is highest on cool spring and fall nights, when demand is at it's lowest. Consequently, either much of the capacity gets wasted or some base load reactors have to be shut down when demand is too low. Since reactors can't be restarted quickly, doing that means burning more coal/gas during the day - exactly the opposite of what green energy programs are supposed to accomplish!!
Solar is even worse because a quick change in weather can reduce output over a large region to practically nothing in a matter of minutes.
Granted, the oil/gas/coal companies shouldn't have received special treatment (aka tax cuts, grants to develop - not subsidies); but at least coal and gas fired plants can actually produce electricity when they're called upon.
Grid operators and planning agencies know that, so they recommend wind/solar; "green energy" legislation on the other hand, (crafted by lawyers, not engineers) overrides the good judgement of experienced people who know what they're doing and forces utilities to buy the power produced by "on the grid but useless" wind/solar installations.
We can't "unplug" even 10% of the power plants online and "plug into" wind/solar. End of story.
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Hold crap you only pay $70 a month for your electric bill a month? I think I want to move to IA. I pay about $130 a month for a 1200 sq ft house. Last month with the heat wave it was $190, I nearlymyself when I got the bill.
Any ways I have been using all CFL in my house, regular bulbs no par 30 or 38, got them from Walmart they are not that "cool white" they are more soft white. Also been doing alot of par 30 and 38 in the buildings at work. Firured out that going from incadecent flood type lamps to LED will go from using about 6000 watts to 780 watts, blows my mind the savings. But you guys are right about the LED lumens for the outside/ parking lot fixtures nothing comes close to matching the 1000 MH lamps, even the wall packs that are a 500 watt MH. Also havent found any that would look good in a regular household lamps. Any recommendations?
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Many LEDs are marketed as 40-60 watt replacements when the lumen output is very low.
At $25-$40 a piece, it's hard to justify purchasing LEDs when you can get good CFLs for $2-3.50 each in bulk.
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