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  1. #105
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    GTA, ON
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    The trick is to craft rules that do not result in tyranny.
    Teach me that trick and I'll let you be my right-hand man as I rule the world Actually, they didn't do such a bad job, once the affluent state of Michigan decided that they didn't want Canadian garbage or Canadian dollars as they were overflowing with cash. The way they set up the system right now, you can generate as much trash as you want as long as you pay for it, but you have every opportunity to get rid of your recyclables/compostables for free. Since garbage can get pretty raunchy over 2 weeks if it contains compostables, you have an extra incentive to get in with the program.

  2. #106
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,650
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    That's applying cost where it belongs, and creating incentive not to be wasteful. Building awareness and opportunity to save money.

    It's a better model than "mandatory".
    Seems they understand thoughtful design is incentive driven rather then penalty driven.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  3. #107
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Several Miles from Sane
    Posts
    1,444
    On the OP: Mike Holmes is subsidized by the Province and the shows sponsors. He does do good work but is not at all concerned about sledge hammering perfectly good building materials that could be "Re-Used". They go to the land fill. I have learned all kinds of stuff watching his programs. I got hooked on it from a post on H-Talk (thank you very much, sort of). He has taken a softer stand on his "Tear It Out" position recently due to pressure from some body regarding the land fill issue. I can only hope he (Mike Holmes) uses SolarMikes system to make a point on using alternative energy sources and how wise the HO was to have a "Solar System". If not I may have to besmirsch his reputation on this very forum.

    On CFL's: I started buying them years ago keeping in mind the "Last 20 times longer than Incandescents" claims. After the first few burned out in a matter of months I started putting a date on them when I installed new ones. "20 times longer" my a$$ ! I must have gotten the seconds. Most only lasted 18 months, 1/2 what the old incandescents lasted. The ones available now are "Subsidized" by the Utility with instant rebates (so the sign says) and cost me about $1.35 each, dimables are twice that. I am waiting to see what the service life ends up being.

    On PV solar: The "Technical Anaylist" (salesman) gave me his calcs and said we can do your system (6.4Kw) for $14K after the utility rebates. I did my own anaylsis and it will take me 19.8 years to break even with the rebate, 31.6 years without. In my area PV is running $4.00 a watt. At that price only big business and municipalities can afford a 20 year payback, not me !

    On E85: It takes 1.8 energy units to produce 1.0 energy unit of Ethanol/Gasoline mix. Only government can afford to do that. D'oh !

    On Recycling: Considering our (USA) massive consumerisim we should be compelled to sort and recycle everything we put into the trash and recycle bin, period !
    If sense were so common everyone would have it !

    All opinions expressed are my own. Any advice provided is based on personal experience, generally accepted fact or publicly available information. As such, it is worth exactly what you paid for it, not a penny more not a penny less !!

  4. #108
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Cagey57 View Post
    On PV solar: The "Technical Anaylist" (salesman) gave me his calcs and said we can do your system (6.4Kw) for $14K after the utility rebates. I did my own anaylsis and it will take me 19.8 years to break even with the rebate, 31.6 years without. In my area PV is running $4.00 a watt. At that price only big business and municipalities can afford a 20 year payback, not me !
    Might be time to look at leasing. Basically shift the electric bill from the electric company to the solar panel company. Only difference is the rate is fixed and guaranteed for 20 years, then they abandon the system in place.

    Many panels installed 40 years ago are still producing 80-90% of the output they made when installed.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #109
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Several Miles from Sane
    Posts
    1,444
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Might be time to look at leasing. Basically shift the electric bill from the electric company to the solar panel company. Only difference is the rate is fixed and guaranteed for 20 years, then they abandon the system in place....
    I read the fine print. They still "Own" the system at the end of the lease and I still get to pay them as long as it is functional and attached to the grid (very fine Lawyering went it to that part). That is why I still don't have a PV system at this point.
    Last edited by Cagey57; 10-09-2012 at 12:16 AM. Reason: typogarphical airor
    If sense were so common everyone would have it !

    All opinions expressed are my own. Any advice provided is based on personal experience, generally accepted fact or publicly available information. As such, it is worth exactly what you paid for it, not a penny more not a penny less !!

  6. #110
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,253
    Quote Originally Posted by Cagey57 View Post
    On the OP: Mike Holmes is subsidized by the Province and the shows sponsors. He does do good work but is not at all concerned about sledge hammering perfectly good building materials that could be "Re-Used". They go to the land fill. I have learned all kinds of stuff watching his programs. I got hooked on it from a post on H-Talk (thank you very much, sort of). He has taken a softer stand on his "Tear It Out" position recently due to pressure from some body regarding the land fill issue. I can only hope he (Mike Holmes) uses SolarMikes system to make a point on using alternative energy sources and how wise the HO was to have a "Solar System". If not I may have to besmirsch his reputation on this very forum.

    On PV solar: The "Technical Anaylist" (salesman) gave me his calcs and said we can do your system (6.4Kw) for $14K after the utility rebates. I did my own anaylsis and it will take me 19.8 years to break even with the rebate, 31.6 years without. In my area PV is running $4.00 a watt. At that price only big business and municipalities can afford a 20 year payback, not me!
    One of the big issues with solar, or any technology that needs some market incentive to get people to choose it, is that it is an upfront cost. If you don't have the disposable money to spend on it, you are left out of the market. I hate monopolies so I would rather have a large number of people each owing a small bit of something than one big company. It is democracy in action. In our case, and Germanys, and many other countries, the way to get more solar on the roof is to make it so that those without the upfront money can afford it. Until there is a better mechanism, the FIT process is it. without those payments, it will be slow process and the continued cost reductions would not happen.

    Mike Holmes has put an eye on "better quality" renovations but I think some people tune in just to hear him rant and get out the crow bar. I'll see what the story is soon with this solar system.

  7. #111
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Jurupa Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by Cagey57 View Post
    I read the fine print. They still "Own" the system at the end of the lease and I still get to pay them as long as it is functional and attached to the grid (very fine Lawyering went it to that part). That is why I still don't have a PV system at this point.
    Not all solar lease programs are the same. Some truly ARE rent to own type systems... some are 'financed' systems, and yes, some are perpetual leases. Heck, my work is currently 'lease to owning' a 1MW solar array - 10 year program where we pay the solar installer a fixed rate per kWh produced (which is actually a little above the current utility price), then at 10 years, the system is ours outright.

  8. #112
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,420
    Get an answer on why the unit was out?

  9. #113
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    GTA, ON
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by BaldLoonie View Post
    Get an answer on why the unit was out?
    My guess is because it collected carcinogenic UV-rays

  10. #114
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,650
    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    Not all solar lease programs are the same. Some truly ARE rent to own type systems... some are 'financed' systems, and yes, some are perpetual leases. Heck, my work is currently 'lease to owning' a 1MW solar array - 10 year program where we pay the solar installer a fixed rate per kWh produced (which is actually a little above the current utility price), then at 10 years, the system is ours outright.
    So after 10 years the energy produced thereafter is effectively FREE.

    How does THAT suck?
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  11. #115
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Jurupa Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    So after 10 years the energy produced thereafter is effectively FREE.

    How does THAT suck?
    I didn't say it sucks... hell, i don't care if it every produces a single watt - all I care is that the new panels are above my parking space, so I get shade now... The only part that sucks about the project is that the company HAS the capitol to build the array themselves, but chose to do this 'deal', I'm guessing because someone knew someone.

  12. #116
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    Nothing is free. Everythign still requires maintenance and at some point it will wear out and fail. I don;t know what hte service life of all hte components are, but I doubt it's much beyond 20 years. After that, you'll be upgrading because it's it's compeltely obsolete.

  13. #117
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
    Posts
    2,897
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    So after 10 years the energy produced thereafter is effectively FREE.

    How does THAT suck?
    The annual energy output is so low that the money wasted on solar panels could be better spent on efficiency upgrades.

    Getting rid of a natural draft furnace and air sealing/insulating could save more energy in 2 years than a 1kw solar system in the northeast could produce in it's lifetime, at a fraction of the capital cost. Spending money on solar diverts funds which are badly needed for efficiency upgrades.

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