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  1. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckcrj View Post
    Where is your proof of molten steel? There was molten metals, not steel. Big difference, go study it.

    Since YouTube is the final authority in your mind, watch the videos in post 92, they explain this.
    I have already watched the videos you posted long ago when they were first made. Some of the evidence of molten metal is in videos I already posted. You see one of the main problems is that the debris was carted off before any real studies could be done. Much of the molten steel testimony comes from fire fighters and the folks who were doing cleanup, but we all know that they are all in cahoots and working with the terrorists. Either that or they were previously abducted by aliens. Funny thing about the videos you posted is that there are no comments allowed, this is always a tell... Wouldn't want anyone calling BS

    Most debunkers cite the NASA thermal imaging to say that temps weren't hot enough to melt steel. The images could not take below surface readings. Answer me this: If the buildings came down from progressive collapse from weakened steel in the upper floors why was there a red hot cauldron that burned for weeks at the BASE of the rubble? One would assume 100+ floors worth of debris would be sufficient in squelching any sort of fire that may be near the base of the building.

    The video says "If molten steel were present, how would it be evidence of a controlled demolition?" LOL If molten steel were found how could the official story be substantiated is the real question. There is, in no way, shape or form reason for there to be molten metal in the building rubble if the official story is true. Buildings that collapse don't leave molten steel behind. The video even says "no molten steel has ever been left behind from an implosion" Hahaha that's because "Bob's Demolition" doesn't use a thermetic material that burns at over 4,500 degrees to decommission old buildings...

    " There was molten metals, not steel. Big difference, go study it."

    Oh believe me I have. I've been at this for over 10 years now. I even heard alternative radio personalities warning that this was going to happen before it ever did and I thought they were nuts, until it happened. Everyone has heard of the NIST report on molten aluminum mixed with office debris. Problem is NIST never conducted experiments to test their theory, they just spit it out and the majority of Americans such as yourself sucked it right up. I posted video earlier of a dude who tried to get burning material to mix with molten aluminum with no luck as objects or materials mixed with molten aluminum tend to float. But we all know that he was a tin foil hat wearing lover of Islam...
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  2. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Those may be conspiracy theorists about the U.S. government orchestrating the attacks of September 11, 2001, but there are others who believe there were conspiracies to cover up the Islamic perpetrators of the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal building and the assasination of JFK. The difference is that those who want to blame the U.S. for killing thousands of American citizens on U.S. soil don't have a shred of evidence or even a viable theory that cannot be dismissed by facts.
    Hey Robo, you're a fairly smart guy but you make me question that with posts such as this... Most run of the mill lame brained Americans think that America is the government. It boggles my mind when people like yourself fall into this idiotic way of thinking. Unchecked government gets perverted into gangs of murdering looters no matter which country. Its happened throughout history across the board. To think it couldn't happen here, especially with the current state of the country, is absurd. I bet you were calling people tin foil mad hatters who called the OKC bombing a false flag back in the 90's. Same probably goes for the JFK assassination which was clearly an inside job as well. The day will come Robo when you WILL admit 911 was a false flag. May be in 1 year, may be in 20.
    America; first we fight for our freedom,
    then we make laws to take it away.

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  3. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Liberty,
    Let’s go easy on him. He said he was coming back tomorrow to go into depth on it. I don’t want to give him a reason to bail out. Many here are obviously looking forward to a respectful, in-depth discussion.
    Brian, this fires me up. I see footage of people being covered in dust, bloodied and battered and videos of children talking about how they still wait for daddy to come home and I fly off the handle. This vile act that has been done to the citizens of this country should not be taken lightly. When people defend those who had a hand in this I cannot help but get filled with fury. And I thought I was being nice...
    America; first we fight for our freedom,
    then we make laws to take it away.

    -Alfred E Newman

  4. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyTree View Post
    Hey Robo, you're a fairly smart guy but you make me question that with posts such as this... Most run of the mill lame brained Americans think that America is the government. It boggles my mind when people like yourself fall into this idiotic way of thinking. Unchecked government gets perverted into gangs of murdering looters no matter which country. Its happened throughout history across the board. To think it couldn't happen here, especially with the current state of the country, is absurd. I bet you were calling people tin foil mad hatters who called the OKC bombing a false flag back in the 90's. Same probably goes for the JFK assassination which was clearly an inside job as well. The day will come Robo when you WILL admit 911 was a false flag. May be in 1 year, may be in 20.
    I agree that in theory a 9/11 type conspiracy could happen here. I could even see an interesting movie being made about it. Where a bunch of top level government officials were behind the whole thing. And there was one guy, maybe Tom Cruise who knew the truth and they were trying to kill him before he exposed them. But in reality I dont believe that a conspiracy of this mangitude could be covered up in our country. There might be some loose ends or debatable issues but the bottom line is even if the government wanted to perpetrate it,They could never pull it off. Too many people would of had to be in on it and it would of leaked out all over the place.

  5. #122
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    I am writing the article on building 7 offline. When done I will post, hopefully it will fit in one reply.

    There are some things I’d like to say as a preamble to that post. In preparation as it were.

    I have to say that I find one of the initial bullet points in the OP to be ironically amusing. The one that says that CTers are “critical thinkers”. What sort of critical thinker continually refuses to read the articles posted by the opposition? Note that you will not see something similar in the upcoming formal presidential debates. To get a clue on how these go, I would highly suggest watching and realizing how the art of debate works.

    NONE of the CTers here have read ANY of the science that has been posted. Seriously? That’s how you debate? Then someone makes the claim that they know what progressive collapse is. NO. You may have heard of it, but if you actually understood its principles, then I would not need to write an article on building 7 or WTC in general. This understanding, or at least the beginnings of it, could have been fostered through a reading of the articles I posted, particularly the one I posted a second time.

    Bail? The only reason I would bail from this debate is that the opposition, quite obviously, does not know how debate is conducted. Again, watch the upcoming ones and learn.

    Secondly, I feel the need to show what a fact is. There seems to be some confusion here even though it’s one of the first things that we learn in middle school science.

    Facts, just like you need to have repeatable experiments in science, are also based upon repeatable observations. In other words, facts can only be that which is self-evident or mutually observable.

    You seem to be confusing “fact” with “that which I believe to be true”. Don’t worry, I get how belief works. In fact, if I did not have beliefs, I would not be able to study history. The study of history is interesting in the context of this discussion. You don’t, or at least *I* don’t consider a thing to be true just because one or a few say it is. That’s why a study of history involves multiple sources. I may read a German tank commander’s account of a battle, and that person, an obvious expert on the matter, may make the claim that Russian tankers basically sucked.

    Can’t you see how that claim is based on human bias? The same as your claims are. You’ve decided that the collapses look like demolitions (as well they should as demos seek to initiate progressive collapse) so now you seek to debate using that bias as some sort of fact. It isn’t, not even close.

    In any case, that commander’s comment flies in the face of multiple other sources. In fact, oodles of it. Therefore, I choose to believe that not to be true. IS MY BELIEF A FACT? No. Not even close.

    One could say, however, that the evidence for the opposing case, that Russians BECAME (after some learning pains) some of the finest tankers of the war, is widely held and somewhat overwhelming in scope. THAT IS MY OPINION. IT IS NOT A FACT.

    There is also the idea that what you may consider a fact cannot be considered one scientifically. Let’s say I get picked up and taken for a ride on an alien spaceship on my way home from work. Guess what, I now consider aliens driving spaceships around to be a flat out fact! But guess what else? I have no way to show it. Unless they leave me a ray gun or something.

    In that case, I WOULD FULLY EXPECT that my first person account be treated as it should be; certainly NOT A FACT in the scientific sense. One could charge that I was on drugs or hallucinating, perhaps. Even if I was not, that is one reason why science must be given something tangible to study. In the case of my ride upon a UFO, I still have nothing tangible to present.

    That is precisely why Liberty looks, um, not so good by attempting to toss around the rules of logic when it is clear that he doesn’t understand them. CTers violate the rules of logic practically daily, but I don’t bring it up because CTers are as illiterate about logic as they are about science.

    Don’t get your feathers ruffled. I am not calling you stupid. Far from it, in fact. I find Royc to be one of the more compelling writers on these boards. But that doesn’t mean I agree with his low standards of belief. Low standards of belief is not scientific. Belief ITSELF is not scientific.

    Further, this is not a court of law. Facts are not established “beyond a reasonable doubt” and therein lies PRECISELY what I find compelling about science. It’s in your face. Facts cannot be denied.

    However, beliefs most certainly can be. Theories too, but you have to understand what that is in science as well. If a theory has not been overwhelmingly confirmed, then it is not a theory! It is a hypothesis. Therefore, to challenge what that theory says requires MORE science that is performed using the scientific method. Apparently, this is yet another 7th grade science topic which CTers don’t get and apparently do not wish to.

    So, Liberty, you are not claiming that the idea of molten steel is a belief or theory; you are holding it up as fact. However, since it does not meet the criteria of fact, that is, it is not self-evident or mutually observed, we can only, rightly, discard it. A straw man can only be erected in front of a VALID argument.

    The rule of formal logic you are violating is called “appeal to authority”. Yes, we’ll pause while you look it up.

    Generally speaking, as I said, pretty much all of your videos are in violation as well. They show nothing. They demonstrate nothing. Therefore, there is no need to refute improperly made assertions.

    You could make them proper. It’s really simple. All one needs to do is to present their case scientifically. I have repeatedly asked; why is it do you think that if the case is so solid, your experts refuse to demonstrate it like any other scientist in the world MUST DO. You don’t get in the journals with invalid or improper science. You will be rejected on that basis.

    That would not necessarily mean that you are wrong, mind you, only that science can only work a certain way. It has rules. The rules MUST be followed or you don’t have science. SO, IF YOUR EXPERTS DO NOT HAVE SCIENCE, WHY THEN MUST SCIENCE RESPOND?

    There is nothing to respond TO.

    Finally, if you wish to observe a true straw man, it would be all this hubbub about debris. This world is FULL of accidental happenings that are potentially devastating and leave pretty much no debris to analyze. As a matter of fact, it’s kind of funny, not one science white paper needed debris to perform their science properly. In fact, the guy who wrote the article did indeed bemoan something, and it wasn’t the lack of debris. It was that the smoke was too thick and obscured some things about the fall that he would have liked to see. The things that he would have liked to see had nothing to do with anything other than trying to get a better understanding about progressive collapse in this situation.

    I can name several cases where we determined what happened, no debris required. How about the Shuttle Accident Report? Are you really ready to say that we can have no idea what happened in any disaster that leaves no debris?

    There’s your straw man, if you would like to see one. Debris analysis is not required to make accident determinations. There are many examples in history. You simply like to jump up and down and make something irrelevant seem relevant. We have a law of logic about that too. Look it up!

    Please note that understanding progressive collapse is also an issue of public safety. If you’ll note, in the part of the article that I actually quoted here shows some pretty ancient structures progressively collapsing even though they were not built with that in mind. We never know all about a thing. Even if we know something is a fact doesn’t mean that we know all about it from a explanation standpoint.

    Bottom line; the way that the buildings fell is something that CTers wish you to believe was not expected, when, in fact, there is no other way things could have gone. It looks like a demo because a demo also seeks to initiate progressive collapse. They also wish you to believe that steel melted simply because they say, incorrectly, that the only way those buildings could have fallen like that would be a demo situation. THAT IS NOT TRUE. SO WHY SHOULD SCIENCE ACT AS THOUGH IT WERE?

    In fact, I’ve seen pictures of beams held up as a case for melted steel. Just one problem, the steel that they showed is deformed, not melted. Again, this is as expected.

    I mean, it only makes sense if you access your knowledge database. How does an old time metal smith make a sword? He puts it in coals or some other heat source until it becomes “soft” but NOT melted! Then he can work it. In the world of metals, “melted” means molten, and deformed means, well, softened and deformed.

    So, we have an interesting case that the pictures actually support the case of science, and not youtube video pseudo-science.

    Why then can’t you just apply that knowledge to the schematics of either building 7 or WTC? Look at the positions of the floor joists and imagine what happens to the floor should they become “soft” (not melted).

    Finally, there is another “rule” of logic we call Occam’s Razor. It means that the simplest explanation is virtually always the best one in terms of physics especially. The buildings fell AS EXPECTED. There was some undetermined melted metal among the debris WHICH WAS EXPECTED.

    If you wish to make something of it, you can. Using science. Now if you only had some to present.

    Next up, building 7, which not only was NOT a demo, but serves as a shining monument to the principles of modern building design, including progressive collapse, multiple redundancies and shared weight loads along multiple points.

    Again, that the building fell uniformly is EXPECTED. Here’s something to chew on, as a matter of fact, had it not fallen as expected, THAT would have been the scientific surprise, not what actually happened!

    One last thing, flight 93 didn't make its target. Where then are the demo charges you folks have uncovered that were not exploded?
    Last edited by scrogdog; 10-01-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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  6. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    Most of the guys are pretty vocal in their views but I'll give you a quick handicap of it. The main conspiracy guys are liberty, roy, wolfstirke, coolwhip, brian and honorable mention to GA who appears to by on the fence. But who's counting?
    GA has found in recent years... the REAL conspiracies (the ones that affect us the most) are perpetrated by govt and bankers... and NEVER see the light of day.

    If one knew how thoroughly and completely the banking and govt are taking them to the cleaners every day (literally being herded like dumb sheep)... they would keep their $$$ in a mason jar and fire the entire govt tomorrow morning.

    Having said that: There is a HUGE amount of evidence that suggests lots of banker and financial types 'conveniently' had a lot of bad debts and potentially incriminating evidence destroyed when the towers collapsed.
    Somehow... there are just too many folks who should be either locked up for life or executed... that got off scott free.

    But nobody cares... unless the media and the 'tide of opinion' on the internet supports the issue. Even when folks are taken to the cleaners financially, they do not care... they just want to feel good and think they are in control of their lives... when they are totally deceived. Asking the TUFF questions, the ones that make the polecats SQUIRM, is in GA's opinion the only way to make them accountable.

    So far... I do not see the media even close to asking the tuff questions. Does anyone else?

    OK, rant off.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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  7. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    I agree that in theory a 9/11 type conspiracy could happen here. I could even see an interesting movie being made about it. Where a bunch of top level government officials were behind the whole thing. And there was one guy, maybe Tom Cruise who knew the truth and they were trying to kill him before he exposed them. But in reality I dont believe that a conspiracy of this mangitude could be covered up in our country. There might be some loose ends or debatable issues but the bottom line is even if the government wanted to perpetrate it,They could never pull it off. Too many people would of had to be in on it and it would of leaked out all over the place.
    Hmmm... While GA has more or less let the 911 truthers thingy go... (still thinks the govt is culpable)... How about lets shift this discussion to conspiracies the govt HAS been involved in? Lots of times the govt has been found to be guilty of perpetrating things which are definitely WRONG and even criminal... can you say 'Fast and Furious' just for one?

    And lets not forget that guy who ran the FBI for decades who had an incriminating file on every president he served under.

    GA's position on this whole thing is: The public should be viewing the govt with suspicion EVERY TIME there is any question... rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. It is proven govts are nothing more than a collection of humans who are power mongers, who already have a history of lieing, cheating, extorting, manipulating, and even murdering when it is convenient... to promote their influence and fortune.

    As a society, we hate them when they run a business... yet as soon as they are elected to public office; somehow their attitudes and behavior is all of a sudden perfect... and all past sins are forgotten. Wake up folks... they are the same scoundrels... just with MORE power... power to take YOUR $$$ and use it to promote their careers. The difference is: In private business they can be held accountable... seems when they get to govt they are immune from responsibility... and we think we will get a fair and honest deal under these jerks? Wake up folks.

    Sheesh... and folks wonder why voting should be restricted... DUH
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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  8. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyTree View Post
    Hey Robo, you're a fairly smart guy but you make me question that with posts such as this... Most run of the mill lame brained Americans think that America is the government. It boggles my mind when people like yourself fall into this idiotic way of thinking. Unchecked government gets perverted into gangs of murdering looters no matter which country. Its happened throughout history across the board. To think it couldn't happen here, especially with the current state of the country, is absurd. I bet you were calling people tin foil mad hatters who called the OKC bombing a false flag back in the 90's. Same probably goes for the JFK assassination which was clearly an inside job as well. The day will come Robo when you WILL admit 911 was a false flag. May be in 1 year, may be in 20.
    I have always maintained that the OKC bombing was the product of Islamic perpetration that was covered up by government which focused all of its efforts to cover up the Islamic connection by maintaining that all blame was on misguided Americans who just happened to have lose ties with American militia groups that the government administration at that time opposed. There is no way that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols orchestrated that bombing. All of the initial reporting of Middle Eastern looking men seen at the van/bomb and the Murray building were squashed by the media within 48 hours, when the White House administration began it's attack of American militia groups being responsible;
    It is unconscionable to accept that the FBI never interviewed a primary Middle-Eastern suspect in the Oklahoma City bombing about the bombing itself, never issued an official on-the-record statement exonerating him of complicity in the Oklahoma City bombing, and despite the numerous questions surrounding the ties and activities of this individual, did nothing as he gained employment following April 19, 1995 but before September 11, 2001 at Boston-Logan airport – an airport where two of the 9/11 hijacked planes originated.
    http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/hagmann122706.htm

    It is unfortunate that Americans usually need to go to news sources outside of the U.S. to get all perspectives of events that occur in the U.S.

    As for JFK, being old enough to remember his assassination and the disappearances of so many who opposed the Warren report findings, there is no way I can accept that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin, or at least not the lone assassin. There were so many influential people and organizations worldwide that wanted JFK dead, I would not be surprised to find out that the JFK assassination was a real life murder on an orient express scenario. With the finding out that JFK was terminally ill, even JFK himself is implicated in being responsible for his assassination.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  9. #126
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    Politicians are subject to the same human failings as scientists.

    Unfortunately, we have no formal exacting standard under which they should operate.

    Indeed, when speaking of an entity that votes NO to the question "should we be required to READ the bills we sign" then it is clear that not only do they not have any standard whatsoever, they can actually throw that in our collective faces without consequence.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  10. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    I agree that in theory a 9/11 type conspiracy could happen here. I could even see an interesting movie being made about it. Where a bunch of top level government officials were behind the whole thing. And there was one guy, maybe Tom Cruise who knew the truth and they were trying to kill him before he exposed them. But in reality I dont believe that a conspiracy of this mangitude could be covered up in our country. There might be some loose ends or debatable issues but the bottom line is even if the government wanted to perpetrate it,They could never pull it off. Too many people would of had to be in on it and it would of leaked out all over the place.
    This is pretty much how I view this as well. Yes, U.S. government, being made up of people and all people are capable of committing evil and justifying it, could very well orchestrate horrific scenarios in which innocent people are sacrificed. I think that the cases of Ruby Ridge, the Whacko Waco Koreshians, the OKC Islamic cover up and most recently the Fast and Furious fiasco all indicate that persons in government are willing to do horrifically evil things for specific agendas. however, like you state, a government conspiracy to attack or allow the attack of the U.S. on the scale of the September 11, 2001 attacks would be a legistical nightmare involving literally thousands of Americans. This is what I mean by saying that leftist conspiracy theories are so often way out in left field.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    GA has found in recent years... the REAL conspiracies (the ones that affect us the most) are perpetrated by govt and bankers... and NEVER see the light of day.

    If one knew how thoroughly and completely the banking and govt are taking them to the cleaners every day (literally being herded like dumb sheep)... they would keep their $$$ in a mason jar and fire the entire govt tomorrow morning.

    Having said that: There is a HUGE amount of evidence that suggests lots of banker and financial types 'conveniently' had a lot of bad debts and potentially incriminating evidence destroyed when the towers collapsed.
    Somehow... there are just too many folks who should be either locked up for life or executed... that got off scott free.

    But nobody cares... unless the media and the 'tide of opinion' on the internet supports the issue. Even when folks are taken to the cleaners financially, they do not care... they just want to feel good and think they are in control of their lives... when they are totally deceived. Asking the TUFF questions, the ones that make the polecats SQUIRM, is in GA's opinion the only way to make them accountable.

    So far... I do not see the media even close to asking the tuff questions. Does anyone else?

    OK, rant off.
    Your posting in the third person is getting a bit creepy......I'm just saying.....

    You didn't use to post in the third person. Have you been taken over by aliens or been given liberal hormone shots or something?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  12. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Your posting in the third person is getting a bit creepy......I'm just saying.....
    Glad it's not just me.
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  13. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    There is also the idea that what you may consider a fact cannot be considered one scientifically. Let’s say I get picked up and taken for a ride on an alien spaceship on my way home from work. Guess what, I now consider aliens driving spaceships around to be a flat out fact! But guess what else? I have no way to show it. Unless they leave me a ray gun or something.

    In that case, I WOULD FULLY EXPECT that my first person account be treated as it should be; certainly NOT A FACT in the scientific sense. One could charge that I was on drugs or hallucinating, perhaps. Even if I was not, that is one reason why science must be given something tangible to study. In the case of my ride upon a UFO, I still have nothing tangible to present.
    The leap you are making is that we should not consider something to be real unless we first have science study it and come to a unanimous conclusion that it is a fact. But something can be very real and not yet be studied by science.

    Science wants to be the governing authority on who tells us what is real. They like to use the word ‘fact” to mean “real”, but as you have pointed out, they are two very different things. Something can be very real and not yet be a fact. Real supersedes fact, not the other way around.

    In your above example, if one hundred scientists were taken aboard a spacecraft, each shown a ray gun, were allowed to shoot it, study its effects, and each had the same experience with it, but were given nothing to bring back to earth to show their fellow scientists, their experience would not prove the existence of a superior species among us. Science would say since there are no facts to the case there is nothing real to the case, but that is a leap. It would raise the probability of their experience being real even though it was not proven as scientific fact.

    How this applies to Building 7 is that missing evidence cannot provide facts. I’m not saying there was a conspiracy but someone knows that missing evidence will suppress factual evidence. When that is done you get scientists to say what you are saying and poo-poo any conclusion other than the mundane.

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