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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    435

    AX Boiler Controling

    I am new to the AX world, but have been stumbling through it pretty well, until now.

    I have 2 fully modulating boilers that I am trying to control independently as well as lead/lag. I have a program that is operational but I'm not happy with it. Does anyone have any advice on how to approach this and/or any templates you'd be willing to send me?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Philly
    Posts
    512
    Quote Originally Posted by HuNGRYTeCH View Post
    I am new to the AX world, but have been stumbling through it pretty well, until now.

    I have 2 fully modulating boilers that I am trying to control independently as well as lead/lag. I have a program that is operational but I'm not happy with it. Does anyone have any advice on how to approach this and/or any templates you'd be willing to send me?
    I would install a real field controller, a quality application specific or programmable controller of any protocol type regardless of the manufacturer. I see you stated you are new to AX, you will soon find out how easily these devices become faulted, they just run too many other services. Boiler systems are a critical function to the building's integrity. Right of the bat, the Jace has to communicate to a NDIO board, that's strike one to me. The AX programming modules are at the lowest stripped down level, which is fine for some stuff. Most of the newer field controllers have built in sequencing and lead lag modules available. I know the controllers we use, I can have a boiler plant program ready to roll in minutes. A program that has a documented sequence of operation and support. Where as a similar program in AX would take days from scratch with no support or documents, just some stuff that you made up. Cowboy programming? I know many of others here will disagree with me, some not. Boiler controls are unique, there is allot of liability clauses involved. The liability isn't for starting and stopping the boilers, but the mentality should be carried over when installing a control system. I've been in this business for over thirty years, that same old McDonnell/Miller low water cut-off was old when I started, it's still installed today. Why? Because it works, every time it works. I'd like to have the same feeling with my DDC boiler controllers.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,219
    mechdorn, I like to know which manufacturer of ddc controllers you use?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,461
    Quote Originally Posted by mechdorn View Post
    ....Cowboy programming?
    ....yeeeee....Haaaar!

    ....pass the beans.
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Northern NY
    Posts
    121
    I have done many boiler systems in AX and yes it takes custom programing, but so does every job I have ever done. I wish just once I could have an engineer or commissioning agent let me use canned code that I already had. I have never seen a sequence that matches exactly and to get it to match it is easier to write from scratch.

    Depending on your sequence, the built-in sequencer block can be a good start but depends on if you need to control water temperature, types of signal, etc

    -Jeremy

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Amarillo by mornin'
    Posts
    853
    I would also like to know what controllers you use that has all of what you mentioned

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Taxachuesetts
    Posts
    198
    I agree with mechdorn about not running critical control apps in a Jace/NDIO. The Jace is a great supervisory controller, the fact it deals with so many services and needs a reboot for most upgrades makes it not the best choice for a boiler controller in my book.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    256

    Jace I/O

    Quote Originally Posted by krac View Post
    I agree with mechdorn about not running critical control apps in a Jace/NDIO. The Jace is a great supervisory controller, the fact it deals with so many services and needs a reboot for most upgrades makes it not the best choice for a boiler controller in my book.
    Well I use them all the time. If you follow the rules its as solid as any thing else. Have a few Chiller Plants with no problem. Lots of Boilers and AHU's.

    G

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,461
    Quote Originally Posted by krac View Post
    ... about not running critical control apps in a Jace.....
    how strange ...seems like it would be best to know how to program a jace before ...um, commenting on its suitability for something.
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Philly
    Posts
    512
    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    mechdorn, I like to know which manufacturer of ddc controllers you use?
    JCI-PCG today. I'm not here to make claims on controllers, I've used array of controllers throughout my career, they all compete with one and another. I'm sure HW, Seimens, KMC, or whoever has a competing controller within the price range and functionality. The PCG has been used by the JCI branch for about three years now (under another name), they got most of the bugs worked out. It's a relief, because before that I was working with the JCI FX line, I was one of the ones dealing with the new controller bugs. For me, the FX line is the coolest for programming, they have a ton of modules and I still could write line code within the program. The programming is just too time consuming for average programmer plus the canned programs suck. Almost everybody here has dealt with the JCI HVAC Pro software. The PCG software starts with the same Q/A session but with the exception now it has an outstanding plant heating or cooling Q/A session. I'll say this, somebody has put allot of time into this, it's exceptionally good, better than what I could do, and that's hard for me to admit. After that you still have the same old side loop session to add a little extra I/O. So far so good, but still isn't exactly what I wanted, no problem. Unlike the HVAC pro software, now I can see all the programming modules, edit, replace or add with custom programming. The programming modules are modest like the Jace stuff. Usually I'm just adding a little bit or here or there, so it's tolerable. I did a crazy clean room project with these controllers, allot of custom programming for boilers, chillers and 100% OA units. I haven't received a single compliant about the controllers performance. Just as a side note, they employ an auto PID tune feature, it actually works well. Overall, they stay online and keep working, ultimately that's really i want or expect from a field controller. I don't want to railroad from the original post, I don't see any of the AX guys helping out here. Hey, I put my hat in here, I'm against it, but that doesn't mean anything. I'm sure some of you AX guys are sitting on some custom jar files that could help this guy out. I see one post that he does all the time, can somebody give the AX newbie a little help or insight?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,219
    Can PCG be bought off the counter by the public? and of course its programming software/dongles, etc.?
    If that is possible, can you recommend any supply houses? I don't mind taking a look.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,461
    Quote Originally Posted by mechdorn View Post
    I'm not here to make claims on controllers .... I'm sure some of you AX guys are sitting on some custom jar files that could help this guy out.
    Really? ... read your first post to this fella's question ... and tell us all again ...

    1. the original post HAS been derailed by needless uninformed references to
    --a. unsuitability of niagara
    --b. oblique references to something else (magically suitable)...but not actually specified
    2. custom modules and or jar files not needed
    3. JCI Fx field controller programming bears VERY little resemblance to anything in Niagara world.
    4. lead-lag and fault roll-over is fundamentally simple code
    5. if people would shut up proselytizing about things they didnt know anything about, then somebody (who does know) may post this fella a bog file to assist
    6. ...or maybe he just needs to put in some hard yards and work it out.

    ...looks like the sky is falling again.
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Taxachuesetts
    Posts
    198
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    how strange ...seems like it would be best to know how to program a jace before ...um, commenting on its suitability for something.
    Not sure my opinion deserves that kind of response. Why would you use a Jace to control an AHU when a more application specific device would work?

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