Tax refund question

[JohnGuc]

I have a question about the 30% tax refund for geo
Does this cover the entire cost of the project or does it split out non geo equipment?

Ive decided Im going to go with a geo split system with a propane backup.
This will mean the geo split coil
With a full propane furnace

Will I be able to get the rebate on the entire cost or do I have to subtract the propane furnace?

Thanks
John

[JCT]

30% of total system installed cost

[Bergy]

It is not a refund, it's a tax credit. You must have a tax liability in order to get the 30% credit.

Bergy

[Salesleader]

Usually the entire job is under the tax credit but you may want to check with your accountant.

[SkyHeating]

First check with your CPA, second, whoever does the work, get them to write an invoice that states.
Install of geothermal system and required ground loop $XXX

That is the invoice your file with your taxes, they can break down the invoice for you personally if you would like but KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) that way there are no questions asked. The tax credit states anything that is needed for the operation of the ground source heat pump, some could argue the propane furnace is not needed and you could use your old furnace, others would argue that it is needed since the blower motor increases efficiency etc. Why give the IRS a gray area, make it black and white, everything you paid for was for the geothermal system.

[JohnGuc]

I really like the idea of the KISS invoice definitely going to do that

I definitely pay enough income tax that I can get it as a credit
I do my own taxes and already punched into turbo tax a bigger number in then 1/3 of this estimate
It came back dollar for dollar refund

[motoguy128]

How do you determine the system rating when using a furnace for back-up since it's not a AHRI match? The mfg will list a AHRI valvue for the A-coil, but does that jsut assume you are using a ECM blower motor?

Similarly, what if i have an existing furnace with a ECM motor?

I'm acutally looking at geo for my own home. It's just for my downstairs system, so I'm thinking of just sizing for cooling only (2 tons) and then installing it on a new VS 96% 2 stage furnace. At current gas and electric prices (including taxes etc.) the break even COP is about 3.6. But on top of the 30% fed credit, there's also a state tax credit and utility rebate that makes it almost 40%.

A guy 4 doors down had a 3 ton system put in and when he factored in rebates and credits, the system was close to the same price as a Carrier Infinity furnace with a 17 Seer 2 stage AC.

One operational questions, I assume that it would stage to the furance only when needed, then stage back down the the geothermal system, so in cold weather it should run constantly.

[SkyHeating]

Motoguy, geo split systems are still rated with just coil match, I don't know what they base it on but they are in the AHRI directory so you can do a dual fuel split system and meet the tax credit guidelines. I think it is partially because a geothermal system is rated different than an air source system that they can do this, but that is only a guess.

For your personal house you should be able to achieve a at least a 3.6 COP, lots of the split systems we use are rated at a 3.8COP on high stage and a 4.4-4.6 COP on low stage and EERs in the 20+ range, but if you can, I would go with a package unit and electric backup. The WaterFurnace 7 Series that we use has a 5.3 COP and a 41 EER in low stage.

[motoguy128]

The better geo installer here sells Geocomfort. Seems like id be foing backwards if I went all electric. With 2 systems, the downstairs system would either have to be oversized to 4 tons or id be on the strips pretty heavy.... enough that it would probalbly drop my cop to overall cop to about 2.5 or lower. The last thing I want is to trade 300/100 gas/elec bill in jan for 100/350 withn all elec geo. Id rather see 200/150.

The waterfurnace dealer isnt bad by any means, but not my first choice.

In a perfect world I would have put in a combi boiler instead of straigth tankless, and put in a 4 ton loop and a pair of 2 ton units then added hydronic coils for aux.

I cringe at imstalling strips when I have a gas source rught there.

I also could just add the system split to my existing, oversized 100k furnace too. Its only 8 years bold and I aded a ge evergreen to it. Mostly for bneing able to do deh on demand and low speed fan.


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[motoguy128]

I took another look at the performance numbers on the geocomfort package unit. Im wishing now I had gotten a combi boiler version of the navien tankless I have. I could void my warranty and run a hydronic coil for aux heat. I could add a aquacoil unit and set bthe water heater to 140f and get 40k btus by itself or probably around 20k supplemental. Although trying to keep my recirculation loop would be tricky...especially if I urtilized the desuperheatr for preheat of incomming cold water.

Why about installing a very basic 45k single stage 95% furnace in parallel with dampers.

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[SkyHeating]

As long as that single stage 95% furnace has some sort of ECM motor, but you could always install an evergreem ECM if you put in a basic furnace. The package units are just a much higher efficiency than the split systems in most cases I have seend. I don't know if this is because of they way they are rated or if they are just less efficient. I have wanted to try a hot water coil on a system for backup instead of auxillary electric but all jobs have either been propane and better to go electric or have been all electric with no natural gas option or have been full replacement system where it is to spendy to do gas furnace and split system and Navien.

The other option that you could possibly do is instead of a Navien, you could install a larger, say 4-6 ton water to water unit that does all of your domestic water and just runs to a water coil on an air handler to heat so you don't need backup heat. However i have never been a fan of geothermal water coil cooling, but at least its something else to think about.

[motoguy128]

Too bad water to water cop drops to 3.2 making it less cost effective than gas. EER of 19 doesnt save much over air to air and thats part load with a 53f water temp. Thats a little warm for a humid climate. Id want at least 50f. But youh do have the advantage of chiled water for dehumidification and nearly free hot water for reheat. Dont tempt me. my very own little chiller.

Im just not seeing the economies there.

Best bet might be to go ahead and utilize the navien for aux. So I switch the builtin recirc pump to ru n internal recirculation only to the 1/2 gal internal tank. Then install a small dedicated recirculatiojn pump and finally a larger maybe 6 or 7 gpm circ pump to the coil. If I run 115f water, I can get 40k btus with a 30f temp rise on 1250cfm in emerhency heat using a 3 ton pkg geo and on aux with 92f, 30k btu i should be able to get 15k btu for 45k total capacity.

Im not sure how much face area id need for the approach temps id need.



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