Page 10 of 21 FirstFirst ... 3456789101112131415161720 ... LastLast
Results 118 to 130 of 271
  1. #118
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    5,551
    Curious to place so much power with Unions when they occupy such a small part of working people in the US. Anyway...
    I've been told the business of the USA is business. If ideas are developed on government time and taken to the private sector there are still many ways the government gets a payback. Mostly through corporate/payroll taxes. It's not a net loss. Many countries subsidise businesses.
    People that don't see or understand abuse of power don't understand the human mind. Evil and power co-exist far too often.
    Tracers work both ways.

  2. #119
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,278
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Curious to place so much power with Unions when they occupy such a small part of working people in the US. Anyway...
    I've been told the business of the USA is business. If ideas are developed on government time and taken to the private sector there are still many ways the government gets a payback. Mostly through corporate/payroll taxes. It's not a net loss. Many countries subsidise businesses.
    People that don't see or understand abuse of power don't understand the human mind. Evil and power co-exist far too often.
    I wonder if this is in line with the saying:

    Power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts (no exceptions). In GA's opinion, there is an implied thought here: The more power one accumulates... the more they become corrupted.

    Now different folks can handle more or less power with less or more amounts of corruption... however the end result is the same with ALL folks.

    There is an obvious conclusion here: NEVER trust someone that lusts for power... and give trust slowly to anyone who is IN power.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  3. #120
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    5,551
    Pretty much. I missed the film Too Big To Fail when it came out but I just caught it on HBO last week. It seemed to follow the facts as I understood them. At least as they were reported. One point the film made was nobody wanted regulation because they were making too much money. Now we have more politicans wanting less regulation claiming it hurts business. Strange after that thinking almost sunk our country. All that power and money was a corrupting factor if not the engine driving people in position to do really bad things.

    A lot of people in power are sociopaths and have no sense of guilt. Everyone has probably known one or more on a personal level. Unless a person really analyses the sociopath they will appear successful, even charming. Great politician material. They work the system.

    People survived on this planet because they learned to co-operate. Like hunter/gathers they learned to share and to work together. We understand predators in other species. Maybe even admire them and their ability to survive. We have a harder time understanding a human predator. The sociopath is our predator. Often the Ann Rand mentality fits this discription.
    Tracers work both ways.

  4. #121
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,278
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Pretty much. I missed the film Too Big To Fail when it came out but I just caught it on HBO last week. It seemed to follow the facts as I understood them. At least as they were reported. One point the film made was nobody wanted regulation because they were making too much money. Now we have more politicans wanting less regulation claiming it hurts business. Strange after that thinking almost sunk our country. All that power and money was a corrupting factor if not the engine driving people in position to do really bad things.

    A lot of people in power are sociopaths and have no sense of guilt. Everyone has probably known one or more on a personal level. Unless a person really analyses the sociopath they will appear successful, even charming. Great politician material. They work the system.

    People survived on this planet because they learned to co-operate. Like hunter/gathers they learned to share and to work together. We understand predators in other species. Maybe even admire them and their ability to survive. We have a harder time understanding a human predator. The sociopath is our predator. Often the Ann Rand mentality fits this discription.
    Good post! IMO you have described one of the glaring faults with humanity... the lust for power. And I suspect every one of us has more of it within ourselves than we would care to admit to ourselves.

    I do have one thought to interject though: In GA's opinion the missing ingredient, when we discuss what went wrong that caused the crash of 2008, was not the banks or the govt... rather a lack of a sense of responsibility on the part of the average consumer.
    Does anyone really think they can continue to refi their house--cash out some equity--live a lifestyle beyond their earned income--REPEAT THIS EVERY YEAR... Without the house of cards coming crashing down sooner or later???? Really now.
    There was just as much (if not perhaps MORE) greed on the part of the American consumer... as there was lack of common sense in the banking community (and in GA's opinion the govt also).
    When there is a market, the product in demand will ALWAYS be provided by someone (even when the product is illegal). So when the market wants an irresponsible financial system... that product will be provided one way or another.
    It is really the consumer's responsibility to make wise decisions... not the govt's responsibility to make life safe and risk free (two goals GA believes are impossible for a govt to provide).

    So what is the solution: Simple, yet in two forms:
    1) When an individual makes a financial blunder... THAT PERSON must clean up their own mess... and
    2) When a business (manufacturer, bank, investment house, etc) makes a financial blunder... THAT organization has to clean up their mess.
    Obviously, cleaning up the mess may not always work... resulting in loss. Ever wonder what would happen if the members of the board of directors of a failed bank could literally be dragged to the town square and tarred/feathered... along with ALL their financial assets being sold to pay the debts of the folks they screwed? Yeah, that FEAR of ruin just might motivate more cautions behavior.
    And in GA's opinion this FEAR of LOSS is the missing key in modern America.

    When there are UNSPOKEN yet GUARANTEED safety nets, provided by the govt with their endless printing press of $$$... Where is the incentive to be cautious and not make a financial mistake?
    Yep, you guessed it... IT DOES NOT EXIST.

    As GA has posted many times: Take away the govt safety nets... and folks will become a lot more responsible with their lives and their $$$.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  5. #122
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    881
    It was my understanding the officers of a company can be held personally responsible for certain actions of the company if they were remiss in their duties. A corporation isolates the shareholders from risk of person bankruptcy if the company goes under. This prevents you from losing all you own just because you own a share of stock in a bankrupt company. The officers of the company have a degree of liability and can bear the consequences of their actions. Many of the officers of Enron found themselves in a lot of trouble. I think most of the corporate problems are caused by the too big to fail monster mega corps like Citibank, General Motors and AIG.

    Back to the main topic of this discussion. You've lost the war when it is easier get illegal drugs in elementary schools and in prisons than it is to get beer. A major effect of the drug is to heavily incentivize the drug trade, imprison casual users, kill hundreds of thousands of people and destroy millions of lives. Few other government programs have had so many destructive unintended consequences.

    BTW, Portugal's decriminalization didn't legalize drugs. Thus it maintained the high reward incentives to the drug cartels. I suspect that legalizing the import and sale would decrease the prices and increase usage, a tax to keep prices up may keep the usage level about the same.
    http://www.cato.org/publications/whi...-drug-policies

    Excerpts.
    Thus, drug possession for personal use and drug usage itself are still legally prohibited, but violations of those prohibitions are deemed to be exclusively administrative violations and are removed completely from the criminal realm. Drug trafficking continues to be prosecuted as a criminal offense.

    The political consensus in favor of decriminalization is unsurprising in light of the relevant empirical data. Those data indicate that decriminalization has had no adverse effect on drug usage rates in Portugal, which, in numerous categories, are now among the lowest in the EU, particularly when compared with states with stringent criminalization regimes. Although postdecriminalization usage rates have remained roughly the same or even decreased slightly when compared with other EU states, drug-related pathologies — such as sexually transmitted diseases and deaths due to drug usage — have decreased dramatically. Drug policy experts attribute those positive trends to the enhanced ability of the Portuguese government to offer treatment programs to its citizens — enhancements made possible, for numerous reasons, by decriminalization.
    Last edited by allan38; 09-27-2012 at 12:25 AM.
    I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
    ― Benjamin Franklin

  6. #123
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,268
    Ya know what one of the biggest arguments people have against gun laws?

    If we make guns illegal only the Hardened criminals will have them.

    The same can be said in the case of drugs.

    Guns being illegal is dangerous because only people with the intent to harm others will get them, and with illegal drugs, people with intent to harm others are selling drugs to our sons and daughters.

  7. #124
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Florida Panhandle
    Posts
    4,394
    Think about this....

    What would happen if it was made legal for anyone to grow up tp five plants anywhere they wanted to.....


    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  8. #125
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,278
    Quote Originally Posted by allan38 View Post
    It was my understanding the officers of a company can be held personally responsible for certain actions of the company if they were remiss in their duties. A corporation isolates the shareholders from risk of person bankruptcy if the company goes under. This prevents you from losing all you own just because you own a share of stock in a bankrupt company. The officers of the company have a degree of liability and can bear the consequences of their actions. Many of the officers of Enron found themselves in a lot of trouble. I think most of the corporate problems are caused by the too big to fail monster mega corps like Citibank, General Motors and AIG.

    Back to the main topic of this discussion. You've lost the war when it is easier get illegal drugs in elementary schools and in prisons than it is to get beer. A major effect of the drug is to heavily incentivize the drug trade, imprison casual users, kill hundreds of thousands of people and destroy millions of lives. Few other government programs have had so many destructive unintended consequences.

    BTW, Portugal's decriminalization didn't legalize drugs. Thus it maintained the high reward incentives to the drug cartels. I suspect that legalizing the import and sale would decrease the prices and increase usage, a tax to keep prices up may keep the usage level about the same.
    http://www.cato.org/publications/whi...-drug-policies

    Excerpts.
    Thus, drug possession for personal use and drug usage itself are still legally prohibited, but violations of those prohibitions are deemed to be exclusively administrative violations and are removed completely from the criminal realm. Drug trafficking continues to be prosecuted as a criminal offense.

    The political consensus in favor of decriminalization is unsurprising in light of the relevant empirical data. Those data indicate that decriminalization has had no adverse effect on drug usage rates in Portugal, which, in numerous categories, are now among the lowest in the EU, particularly when compared with states with stringent criminalization regimes. Although postdecriminalization usage rates have remained roughly the same or even decreased slightly when compared with other EU states, drug-related pathologies — such as sexually transmitted diseases and deaths due to drug usage — have decreased dramatically. Drug policy experts attribute those positive trends to the enhanced ability of the Portuguese government to offer treatment programs to its citizens — enhancements made possible, for numerous reasons, by decriminalization.
    Not exactly true...

    While the board of directors can be held liable for some categories of decisions... it is more like a wet noodle slap than any real discipline (unless a politician makes a national issue of it... and then all of a sudden someone in the business community becomes a scapegoat for a polecat).

    And NO, the shareholders of a co loose if the co goes belly up. Note many shareholders of GM were left holding the bag... as well as the suppliers. The union pension funds came away with literally NO loss though... the crowd that voted BHO into office. While GA is not fussing about the union group... He does think it is more than a coincidence the crowd who elected BHO got to keep their $$$, while the outgoing crowd lost their $$$...

    And we say it is a fair system... not a chance that is true.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  9. #126
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,278
    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    Think about this....

    What would happen if it was made legal for anyone to grow up tp five plants anywhere they wanted to.....


    Roy
    And lets not forget that the plant from which 'hemp' rope was made... is in the same family as WEED... the plant was grown as a legal farm crop until sometime in the 60's.

    Remember the Steve Miller Band song about the sinking of the Titanic...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  10. #127
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paper Street Soap Company
    Posts
    2,304
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Not exactly true...


    While the board of directors can be held liable for some categories of decisions... it is more like a wet noodle slap than any real discipline (unless a politician makes a national issue of it... and then all of a sudden someone in the business community becomes a scapegoat for a polecat).

    And NO, the shareholders of a co loose if the co goes belly up. Note many shareholders of GM were left holding the bag... as well as the suppliers. The union pension funds came away with literally NO loss though... the crowd that voted BHO into office. While GA is not fussing about the union group... He does think it is more than a coincidence the crowd who elected BHO got to keep their $$$, while the outgoing crowd lost their $$$...

    And we say it is a fair system... not a chance that is true.
    Yep the bond holders were given pennies on the dollar. They just wanted their original investment back. Obama called them greedy.

    It's a open window into his idelogy. Not a second thought to the impact of his decision to soak the bond holders.

    Enron was just an example set upon by the media and progressives to demonize corporations in general while their own sub-prime polices would eventually wind up fleecing the wealth out of millions of tax payers and wipe out their pensions on a exponential scale compared to Enron.

    Selective moral relativism is the liberal achillies heel.

  11. #128
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    5,551
    Quote Originally Posted by Six View Post
    .

    Enron was just an example set upon by the media and progressives to demonize corporations in general while their own sub-prime polices would eventually wind up fleecing the wealth out of millions of tax payers and wipe out their pensions on a exponential scale compared to Enron.

    Selective moral relativism is the liberal achillies heel.
    Like most jokes, I keep waiting for the punch line. "The media and progressives sub prime policies"? ?? The media or progressives control bank policy? Sub prime lending was a product of deregulation, creative accounting, and greed.
    The attacks on corporate greed were well deserved. To blame liberals for the fall? Try finding a liberal in the banking system. How about in a board room.
    Bond holders take risk. So do stock holders, sometimes to the point that gambling is a better description of their investments.
    Their is little point to strip pensions as they are underwritten by the government anyway. Employees are held blameless as they should be. Workers invest time with a company and can never get time back. Investors just invest money. One can live w/o money but not w/o time.
    I don't know why your comments are so predictable in attacking working people and your need to defend unbridled capitalism. I have seen it before though. Just not usually from a working stiff. Maybe you were a railroad baron in a past life.
    BTW being selective as far as morality goes is fairly normal as there is no consensus on morality or to it's degree so it follows neocons like yourself need to plead guilty also.
    Tracers work both ways.

  12. #129
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    5,551
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    I do have one thought to interject though: In GA's opinion the missing ingredient, when we discuss what went wrong that caused the crash of 2008, was not the banks or the govt... rather a lack of a sense of responsibility on the part of the average consumer.
    Does anyone really think they can continue to refi their house--cash out some equity--live a lifestyle beyond their earned income--REPEAT THIS EVERY YEAR... Without the house of cards coming crashing down sooner or later???? Really now.
    There was just as much (if not perhaps MORE) greed on the part of the American consumer... as there was lack of common sense in the banking community (and in GA's opinion the govt also).

    It is really the consumer's responsibility to make wise decisions... not the govt's responsibility to make life safe and risk free (two goals GA believes are impossible for a govt to provide).

    As GA has posted many times: Take away the govt safety nets... and folks will become a lot more responsible with their lives and their $$$.
    Any con knows their biggest asset is greed. They set up a fall guy by taking advantage of this human flaw. I think what the banks did by bundling sub prime mortgages was a monster con job. Even up to using robo signers to squeeze loans through.
    Should borrowers know better? Maybe, but when someone in authority, like a bank, tells them it's ok then a person might start dreaming a little. The con knows his mark wants to believe.
    I know a guy with a MBA, a tax specialist, who considers home equity free money. He went bankrupt and lost his home. $700000. So even a numbers guy can fall for greed.
    I don't think our government should be creating nets for mistakes. That's called life's learning moment. I do believe gov regulations can help people through dumb moments. If bundling sub primes weren't allowed the world would have been better off.
    Many will never out think the con. They make their talent a life quest. Being sociopaths is ez for them.
    Tracers work both ways.

  13. #130
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paper Street Soap Company
    Posts
    2,304
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Like most jokes, I keep waiting for the punch
    line. "The media and progressives sub prime policies"? ?? The media or progressives control bank policy? Sub prime lending was a product of deregulation, creative accounting, and greed.
    The attacks on corporate greed were well deserved. To blame liberals for the fall? Try finding a liberal in the banking system. How about in a board room.
    Bond holders take risk. So do stock holders, sometimes to the point that gambling is a better description of their investments.
    Their is little point to strip pensions as they are underwritten by the government anyway. Employees are held blameless as they should be. Workers invest time with a company and can never get time back. Investors just invest money. One can live w/o money but not w/o time.
    I don't know why your comments are so predictable in attacking working people and your need to defend unbridled capitalism. I have seen it before though. Just not usually from a working stiff. Maybe you were a railroad baron in a past life.
    BTW being selective as far as morality goes is fairly normal as there is no consensus on morality or to it's degree so it follows neocons like yourself need to plead guilty also.
    I didn't expect you to get it. No amount of explanation can shake a liberal out of their defeatist wet dream.

    Ive explained it over and over. Studied the collapse for going on 2 years now, left links on this very forum for all those interested in the truth to go and read.

    But then again there is no cure for self administered stupidity. Some people will never get it and to counter their progressive nonsense with fact may be litleral walk in the park for me but its nails on a chalk board for those so heavily vested in misery, blame and envy.

    You offer up only liberal drool, talking points. You have all of the economic know how of a Capuchin Monkey but claim to know the details that led to the 2008 collapse.

    Please ecxplain in detail then with links to reputable sources how it was the rich evil corporations and bankers.

    Please do so I can effortlessly cut through your pathetic arguments with sound economic knowledge.

    By the way "unbridled Capitalism" is known as Laise Fair Capitalism and it only exist in your delusional hare brained rants against truth.

    There were regs in place but there were no "regulations " against Fannie and Freddie buying and selling toxic MBS to investment banks.

    Your assertion that there is no consensus on morallity just proves my point.

    You defined moral relativism but were to dense to realize it.

    So post some more nonsense. You're easy.

Page 10 of 21 FirstFirst ... 3456789101112131415161720 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event