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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Agree the government should only be there to act as cop when entities get out of line. My main point was that it is a lot easier to knock down your debt when interest rates are low rather than high. If I were running things I would do what it takes to pay it down. Debt is just a monkey on your back that limits your options.
    Understood, but the wealth of the US comes from the workers and the workers ability to produce and not from the government. Of course the government doesn't believe that.

    So if the gov't would get out of the way, step back into their protective responsibilities only and let us citizens start to create again then the money to repay would start to show up which would go towards paying off what these fools got us into.

    The problem I see is that the majority of the US citizens have been conditioned throught the last two generations to look at the government for answers and not themselves anymore. Hence, we as a nation fill the headlines each and every day with "what is the government going to do today" in place of what are we, as individuals going to do.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    We preach to other countries that they need to develope a plan of austerity to get their finances in order. And we do the exact opposite. Our plan seems to be to some how "spend our way out of debt". Its a house of cards and if we dont tighten our belts its all going to crumble.
    Once again, that attitude is because the non-average American today looks and has been looking for the government as the beginning and end to all things and answers when, if fact, we, the citizens and our creativity, has made the US what it was up until a few years ago.

    No matter which way you turn in your own individual state, county and city, your run across government run programs put in place to run you out of business. Or, at the least, burden you with a range of costs and regulations that keep your feet in quick sand while causing your body to run full speed just to break even.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Disagree with him(Schiff) on one t
    hing, keeping interest rates low allows the government to pay down the deficit, increased interest rates reduce the government's ability to do that. Well that is if they actually try.

    Thank you guys Fed. Commodities going up, early Christmas. What does Canada do well? Commodities. Maybe I will get to retire before this next bubble bursts. Well at least I will have a warm place in the sun in winter. Just can't decide, Florida or Arizona? US dollars will be real cheap, Cost me nothing to stay down there for 5 months a year. Can't stay 6 months, loose my Canadian health care after half a year.

    From a quickie financial update courtesy of my investment house.



    As I always said, the financial - investment system is a sick puppy and does not care about the health of a country. Not to say I will not be cashing in.
    Our invesment houses are thoroughly entertwined with our economy and the economy of the world. You cant isolate one from the other.

    Economics isnt just a discreet mathematical function especially when you inolve the psychology of billions of people and how they will react to diminishing investments.

    This is something our President is too stupid to understand. He thinks pumping billions of dollars into the market will spur growth and never addresses the two main issues that are perpetuating our recession.

    lack of confidence from the investors and lack of demand from the consumers.

    The investment side of our economy is critical in perpetuating strong growth and increasing peoes investments. Also most of the 401k's out there and pensions are in the market. Even though the market is being held up with worthless paper.

    Dont be in a hurry to get here when the dollar is all but worthless unless you like spending 10 bux for a gallon of gas and 5 bucks for a loaf of bread.

    You foreign guys seem to revel in the dollars demise without any knowledge to what would happen on a world wide scale if the dollar actually did become worthless.

    Try to realize this is a world economy now.

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six View Post
    Our invesment houses are thoroughly entertwined with our economy and the economy of the world. You cant isolate one from the other.

    Economics isnt just a discreet mathematical function especially when you inolve the psychology of billions of people and how they will react to diminishing investments.

    This is something our President is too stupid to understand. He thinks pumping billions of dollars into the market will spur growth and never addresses the two main issues that are perpetuating our recession.

    lack of confidence from the investors and lack of demand from the consumers.

    The investment side of our economy is critical in perpetuating strong growth and increasing peoes investments. Also most of the 401k's out there and pensions are in the market. Even though the market is being held up with worthless paper.

    Dont be in a hurry to get here when the dollar is all but worthless unless you like spending 10 bux for a gallon of gas and 5 bucks for a loaf of bread.

    You foreign guys seem to revel in the dollars demise without any knowledge to what would happen on a world wide scale if the dollar actually did become worthless.

    Try to realize this is a world economy now.
    But their theory is working. They have not bought up the paper yet and already money that has been sitting on the sidelines is already flowing back into the markets. Confidence is an amazing thing. If it catches on with consumers you may get your demand.

    As far as the comment on the lower dollar, just some tongue in cheek there. You miss that I would rather have you guys with a stronger dollar but the people manipulating things do what is good for them rather than what is good for your country.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six View Post
    This is something our President is too stupid to understand. He thinks pumping billions of dollars into the market will spur growth and never addresses the two main issues that are perpetuating our recession.
    This brings up an interesting point. Why would a fairly intelligent person do such things? Glad you asked.

    Here's my understanding of this person called obama...and the US is more full of his types than anyone wants to admit..........he was raised to believe there is a system "out there" that takes care of the good things for people and, at the same time, is responsible for keeping people from the good things".

    Start back to the Vietnam era and you will see the start of this predominent thought process. There were those who had to sacrifice for the freedom of others while those "others" stayed home, led a fairly productive life while waiting for those that had to sacrifice to enter our shores again so they could throw things at them.

    And we entered the age of the privilidged class of kids of that time. Now they are grown and voting. And they vote for their own. And obama is one of their own. A talker, a fancy looker, a degree-er, a user of emotional words and phases and a con-artis without knowing it.

    So he is only doing what he recognizes and he believes since he sees himself at the top of the food chain and not at the bottom since his followers recognized him and rewarded him with the title of President of the United States. Therefore all good comes from him. And all bad only comes from those that resist him even in the slightest way.

    Psychologists have a term for this but that is another post.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six View Post
    Our invesment houses are thoroughly entertwined with our economy and the economy of the world. You cant isolate one from the other.

    Economics isnt just a discreet mathematical function especially when you inolve the psychology of billions of people and how they will react to diminishing investments.

    This is something our President is too stupid to understand. He thinks pumping billions of dollars into the market will spur growth and never addresses the two main issues that are perpetuating our recession.

    lack of confidence from the investors and lack of demand from the consumers.

    The investment side of our economy is critical in perpetuating strong growth and increasing peoes investments. Also most of the 401k's out there and pensions are in the market. Even though the market is being held up with worthless paper.

    Dont be in a hurry to get here when the dollar is all but worthless unless you like spending 10 bux for a gallon of gas and 5 bucks for a loaf of bread.

    You foreign guys seem to revel in the dollars demise without any knowledge to what would happen on a world wide scale if the dollar actually did become worthless.

    Try to realize this is a world economy now.
    Yes, I agree we are currently in a world-wide economy... however I think there will be divisions soon.

    The 'trend' was to go global for a while... then the trend will be to go 'local' (meaning country) for a while. Go back and look at history; seems the USA has been through this globalisation thingy before... ever wonder why it did not stick?

    The US$ will be devalued, this is the only way to pay down SOME of the debt (note IMO the debt will never be paid off). Inflation, which is always monetary first, then price, then wage (see Dr Milton Freidman for that fact) is a cycle we can go to recent history to see (again, look at the 1970's and 1980's), there is more or less a road map there.

    Get ready for life to become more expensive, for our costs as small business folks to go up, and to have to raise our prices and compete with thinner margins.

    Now I have a question: Was the economic hey-day a decade ago worth this recession? What I am saying is: Was the party worth the hangover? If we had not had an excessively HIGH economy, then we probably would not have had such a crash. Think about it... Would a STABLE economy have been better over the last few decades?
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Galatians 2:20-21; Colossians 1: 21-22 & 26-27; 3:1-4; Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    This brings up an interesting point. Why would a fairly intelligent person do such things? Glad you asked.

    Here's my understanding of this person called obama...and the US is more full of his types than anyone wants to admit..........he was raised to believe there is a system "out there" that takes care of the good things for people and, at the same time, is responsible for keeping people from the good things".

    Start back to the Vietnam era and you will see the start of this predominent thought process. There were those who had to sacrifice for the freedom of others while those "others" stayed home, led a fairly productive life while waiting for those that had to sacrifice to enter our shores again so they could throw things at them.

    And we entered the age of the privilidged class of kids of that time. Now they are grown and voting. And they vote for their own. And obama is one of their own. A talker, a fancy looker, a degree-er, a user of emotional words and phases and a con-artis without knowing it.

    So he is only doing what he recognizes and he believes since he sees himself at the top of the food chain and not at the bottom since his followers recognized him and rewarded him with the title of President of the United States. Therefore all good comes from him. And all bad only comes from those that resist him even in the slightest way.

    Psychologists have a term for this but that is another post.
    Yeah, I think one of those phycho-babble terms is Narcissism. Another might be spoiled and arrogant. They all fit the current occupant of the WH.

    OTOH: It amazes me how naive most of the voters are... do they really think they can feed at the govt troff indefinitely... and nobody will ever have to pay for it? Or are they simply soo childish they do not care? OR... is it a class and race warefare thing where folks think they are entitled to rip off their fellow man for freebies?

    Regardless... Either this idea of living on the dole goes away... or our country will go away (as in being conquered by someone else).

    I do not know about you... but I do not want to learn Chinese or Indian before I go through the Pearly gates.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Galatians 2:20-21; Colossians 1: 21-22 & 26-27; 3:1-4; Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Yeah, I think one of those phycho-babble terms is Narcissism. Another might be spoiled and arrogant. They all fit the current occupant of the WH.

    OTOH: It amazes me how naive most of the voters are... do they really think they can feed at the govt troff indefinitely... and nobody will ever have to pay for it? Or are they simply soo childish they do not care? OR... is it a class and race warefare thing where folks think they are entitled to rip off their fellow man for freebies?

    Regardless... Either this idea of living on the dole goes away... or our country will go away (as in being conquered by someone else).

    I do not know about you... but I do not want to learn Chinese or Indian before I go through the Pearly gates.
    There's an old saying that goes something that you can't unteach a dog....also true for people. Your second point about voter living off the gov't it true but the problem is there entire life some sort of source was there for them to have what they wanted and they have been living that way since birth.

    You, me and a whole bunch of others on here won't have to learn Chinese before the Pearly Gates as we most likely make it that long as we have to defend out country within it's borders if it comes to that. And if what's his face wins this election it will only be a matter of time before all of our lives and freedoms are under a microscope from the new government.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Yes, I agree we are currently in a world-wide economy... however I think there will be divisions soon.

    The 'trend' was to go global for a while... then the trend will be to go 'local' (meaning country) for a while. Go back and look at history; seems the USA has been through this globalisation thingy before... ever wonder why it did not stick?

    The US$ will be devalued, this is the only way to pay down SOME of the debt (note IMO the debt will never be paid off). Inflation, which is always monetary first, then price, then wage (see Dr Milton Freidman for that fact) is a cycle we can go to recent history to see (again, look at the 1970's and 1980's), there is more or less a road map there.

    Get ready for life to become more expensive, for our costs as small business folks to go up, and to have to raise our prices and compete with thinner margins.

    Now I have a question: Was the economic hey-day a decade ago worth this recession? What I am saying is: Was the party worth the hangover? If we had not had an excessively HIGH economy, then we probably would not have had such a crash. Think about it... Would a STABLE economy have been better over the last few decades?
    Globalization will stick, the reason why is now those third world countries are no longer third world but rather emerging markets now. Capitalism needs growth and these countries have progressed far enough that investors are not afraid to take a chance on them.

    You don't need to reduce debt completely, just bring it down to a manageable level. We got ours down to the low 20% of GDP before this last downturn. I was real disappointed when the government decided to cut taxes because they did not want to run up any more surpluses. They were ideologically driven, people deserved to keep the money they earned, sounds good but I figured they could take a little extra from us as long as they kept putting it towards the debt (and they were). They figured we were in reasonable shape and we could grow our way out of the rest of our debt.

    Whereas I have seen a few good times and bad times come and go and I figured we should be making hay while the sun was shining, a few extra percent of tax will not change our lives much but it sure would if the government had cash in the bank rather than debts. So the government got to the point where they only took in what they needed to run itself and pay the interest on what we owe. Then 2008 came and they were running deficits and now we have an expanded debt. With the surpluses they had before they cut the tax rate they could have stimulated the economy (which they did with borrowed money) and cut the extra percent in tax they had over and above what they needed giving the economy a further boost.

    Might sound tough to swallow, government taking more tax than it needs (and not spending it) saving it for the bad times that are going to come (and they always do) but for 10 years we showed it can be done). The Chinese did not get hit by the recession because their government collected a big chest during good times and in the last few years has been spending it on infrastructure projects that will make them that much more competitive when good times return.

    One thing that we always hear up here in Canada is that we are not as competitive as the U.S. and that our economy is more conservative. We do not take as many chances and we do not grow as fast. It is partly due to limits we put on our financial institutions, require them to carry more cash, limit their size so that there are enough players so there actually is competition. We do this in other industries also, we do not have a problem with companies being too big to fail, although our banks are approaching that size. I remember getting comments here government should not be able to say how big a company should get, can't remember who though, but it seems to have served us well.

    There are other things, limited government involvement in business, we have a couple of provinces that are the supplier of car insurance. I like to think them having cheaper rates than the private insurance in the other provinces keeps the insurance industry on their toes. If they skimmed too much profit the province where they are operating would decide to go the public insurance route and cut them out. We have marketing boards for eggs and dairy, a quota system determines how much is produced and the government sets the rates so the producers get a reasonable return. It has worked well for the last 50 years. Lot of things in our society moderates our growth but on the flip side they also moderate our decline. Our economy is more stable and the cost to people is less when things start turning bad.

    And there lies where some of my ideas of capitalism, government, society comes from. On the way up a booming economy is great but on the way down it really sucks. While the boom and bust cycles may move us forward much faster than the slow and steady approach it also takes its toil on people and society. And the people end up being the slaves to the economy rather than the economy serving the people. No, I don't want a soviet styled controlled economy, you need enough freedom to have innovation and the desire to take chances, but too much freedom where irresponsible behavior can wreck a county's future is not a good option. As with everything it comes down to balance.

    Sorry for being so long winded.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    And there lies where some of my ideas of capitalism, government, society comes from. On the way up a booming economy is great but on the way down it really sucks. While the boom and bust cycles may move us forward much faster than the slow and steady approach it also takes its toil on people and society. And the people end up being the slaves to the economy rather than the economy serving the people. No, I don't want a soviet styled controlled economy, you need enough freedom to have innovation and the desire to take chances, but too much freedom where irresponsible behavior can wreck a county's future is not a good option. As with everything it comes down to balance.
    And this is where the folks of the free world, I don't believe, really see what's happening. The US is not in a normal up/down market. We are in a designed destructive market by those who want and desire a different form of government who will run the country and not protect the country.

    There is not and will not come a time for recovery. Once out defenses are weakened internally and our "new" government leaders are in place with secure forces including laws then our country will be as flat as a pancake when it comes to innovation, freedoms, levels of opportunity to legally work for and gain wealth and a bunch of other stuff.

    And the intense beginning of that period is only months away for us now.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    And this is where the folks of the free world, I don't believe, really see what's happening. The US is not in a normal up/down market. We are in a designed destructive market by those who want and desire a different form of government who will run the country and not protect the country.

    There is not and will not come a time for recovery. Once out defenses are weakened internally and our "new" government leaders are in place with secure forces including laws then our country will be as flat as a pancake when it comes to innovation, freedoms, levels of opportunity to legally work for and gain wealth and a bunch of other stuff.

    And the intense beginning of that period is only months away for us now.
    And I do not think it has anything to do with your "new" government leaders as the trend was apparent before the 2008 election. I do agree this is not a normal recession. This has been growing for decades and it will take a long time to work itself out. I have faith that it will but I put no stock in someone that says that it can be quick or easy no matter what your political stripe.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    And I do not think it has anything to do with your "new" government leaders as the trend was apparent before the 2008 election. I do agree this is not a normal recession. This has been growing for decades and it will take a long time to work itself out. I have faith that it will but I put no stock in someone that says that it can be quick or easy no matter what your political stripe.
    It's been that way true to the sense you speak of by an element in our government wanting to head for central control of the citizens. This is where the housinc crisis came from as well as the dissapearing job market as factories pull out and head for cheaper countries and many other examples.

    This equation led to the product of the mentality of someone like what obama represents and stands for to be injected like a virus into our private lives, financial stability and our basis works of our Constitution. Before their powers were weak but destructive. Now their powers are very strong and have introduced many negative elements into our systems which have already spread.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  13. #52
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    Raising taxes on top earners, raising taxes on capital gains and raising taxes on small bussineses and Corporations to address the DEBT is a recipe for economic destruction. Couple it with the arbitrary dumping of massive capital into the markets and the rate of collapse will be exponential.

    Its the the liberal way to address a reccesion and it doesn't work.

    No the injection of capital into the market hasn't done anything for the average American who's been unemployed for over 2 years. It hasn't addressed the overall lack of confidence that keeps investors from entering into profit bearing growth opportunities and what it's done to the commodities market is all smoke and mirrors as even the traders and analyst know ultimate consequence is a devaluation of the dollar.

    If you want to raise revenue, not taxes in a free market system you lower taxes, incentivize investment, cut Corporate and small bussiness taxes down to zero.

    And most important elect someone that will cut SPENDING. Wer'e not in massive debt because we're not taxed enough. The Gov't spends 6 trillion in 4 years and we are told we're "unamerican" and selfish because we fight against higher taxes. BS.

    Raise interest rates to start retreiving all of that worthless capital and step back and watch the economy about face.

    No Obama you dont need more taxes, you need more tax payers.

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