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  1. #14
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    Wow. What made you decide to do this experiment? If you don't mind my asking.

  2. #15
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    Aug 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy knocker View Post
    Wow. What made you decide to do this experiment? If you don't mind my asking.
    If you go to top of this thread, I explained why and attached photos: The big idea was to keep ice machines clean by pumping small amounts of HEPA filtered air into the food zone. This would keep ice machines clean by keeping the airborne contamination out and clean air in. Subway and bakeries are most noticbly more dirty because of yeast from baking. Also yeast locations like tap beer and pizza. It turns out this works for remote units but we ran into these interfering condenser flows with the self contained air cooled units. I complained to ice machine manufacturers and NSF and was told by Scotsman that I was lying about this to try to sell a HEPA systems... not true... I am just building prototypes right now and trying to get things to work. I went to NSF Joint Committee meeting in Ann Arbor, MI in June 12, 2012 and argued in front of all the 20 NSF and FDA engineers in the room and the big 3 Scotsman, Hoshi and Manitowoc's engineers on the other side of the room. The ice machine companies, to a man, claimed they had "sealed the condenser fan from the food zone" and when asked by NSF engineer if they (ice machine companies) had ever tested their sealed zone, they said no. This prompted the NSF and FDA engineers to vote 19 to 1 to test the Scotsman, Hoshi and Manitowoc's ice machines for airflow. Then since June they have been arguing back and forth about "how to measure air flow" so I sent them the attached set of photos at the start of this thread so they would stop arguing and start testing and start fixing their ice machines. I came here to HVAC-Talk to see if any of you professionals have encountered this problem or could help in any way. I am sure we would all like to see cleaner ice machines.I don't think anyone likes to clean them. It would be better to spend more time diagnosing and fixing the rather technical problems of ice machines, rather than spending time scrubbing slime out of recirculating systems. Sorry for being long winded.. I get passionate about my work.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Tarpon Springs, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy knocker View Post
    Wow. What made you decide to do this experiment? If you don't mind my asking.
    If you go to top of this thread, I explained why and attached photos: The big idea was to keep ice machines clean by pumping small amounts of HEPA filtered air into the food zone. This would keep ice machines clean by keeping the airborne contamination out and clean air in. Subway and bakeries are most noticbly more dirty because of yeast from baking. Also yeast locations like tap beer and pizza. It turns out this works for remote units but we ran into these interfering condenser flows with the self contained air cooled units. I complained to ice machine manufacturers and NSF and was told by Scotsman that I was lying about this to try to sell a HEPA systems... not true... I am just building prototypes right now and trying to get things to work. I went to NSF Joint Committee meeting in Ann Arbor, MI in June 12, 2012 and argued in front of all the 20 NSF and FDA engineers in the room and the big 3 Scotsman, Hoshi and Manitowoc's engineers on the other side of the room. The ice machine companies, to a man, claimed they had "sealed the condenser fan from the food zone" and when asked by NSF engineer if they (ice machine companies) had ever tested their sealed zone, they said no. This prompted the NSF and FDA engineers to vote 19 to 1 to test the Scotsman, Hoshi and Manitowoc's ice machines for airflow. Then since June they have been arguing back and forth about "how to measure air flow" so I sent them the attached set of photos at the start of this thread so they would stop arguing and start testing and start fixing their ice machines. I came here to HVAC-Talk to see if any of you professionals have encountered this problem or could help in any way. I am sure we would all like to see cleaner ice machines.I don't think anyone likes to clean them. It would be better to spend more time diagnosing and fixing the rather technical problems of ice machines, rather than spending time scrubbing slime out of recirculating systems. Sorry for being long winded.. I get passionate about my work.

  4. #17
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    Jul 2012
    Location
    Western KY
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    Awsome. I get it now. I was thinking you had a production issues or something. Never really checked for this myself but I like the way you think. Btw if you don't have your patent paperwork started you might want to. I imagine your test results are the norm but good luck getting the manufacturers on board.

  5. #18
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    Aug 2012
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    Tarpon Springs, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy knocker View Post
    Awsome. I get it now. I was thinking you had a production issues or something. Never really checked for this myself but I like the way you think. Btw if you don't have your patent paperwork started you might want to. I imagine your test results are the norm but good luck getting the manufacturers on board.
    Thanks Tommy knocker... yup, got my patent applications on file.

    Yes, I too think my tests are the norm. Lets see what NSF does about machines in the field after they are tested. (Next meeting is 1st week of October) NSF is supposed to pull the NSF certification for machines that do not meet NSF standards. And, I believe there are some fixes for machines in the field so they meet NSF standards, which would mean a lot more work for professionals like yourself in the ice machine service business.

    The bottom line is I just can't believe that after all the testing is done that NSF is going to state publicly that sucking air from the floor drain into the ice bin "needs to be fixed, but we will "grandfather in" all the machines in the field that do this." Ugh!

  6. #19
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    Jul 2012
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    Western KY
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    Good luck. Let us know how that meeting goes.

  7. #20
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    Aug 2012
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    Tarpon Springs, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy knocker View Post
    Good luck. Let us know how that meeting goes.
    Thanks Tommy Knocker. I will let you guys know what the manufacturers and NSF have to say in a few weeks. I'm going in to meeting loaded for bear and I am not going to take any more cheap shots from the manufacturers about my test results being falsified and only motivated by money. That's a lie. The truth is, the manufacturers don't want to admit the airflow defect because they would have to pay to fix it. So, it's really the pot calling the kettle black. Stay tuned for the rest of the story.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    wedged in freezer shelf
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleanice View Post
    Has anyone else experienced air flows through the ice bin caused by the condenser fan??
    Yep. Have you tested a new air cooled Mani (I series)? They installed a plate on top by the distro tube to help keep air coming over the top.

    On one machine I had the fan never shut off during harvest and was blowing the water curtain open before the ice would drop and shut down on full bin.
    “If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”

  9. #22
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Tarpon Springs, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    Yep. Have you tested a new air cooled Mani (I series)? They installed a plate on top by the distro tube to help keep air coming over the top.

    On one machine I had the fan never shut off during harvest and was blowing the water curtain open before the ice would drop and shut down on full bin.
    We have not tested exactly a Manitowoc Mani series but yes, the airflow you mention is exactly one of the airflow problems we found in Manitowoc: air blows over the top, past the water curtain and into the ice bin and then the air flow exits cracks in the bin door, the bin drain and the leaky dispense gate (if it is on an ice dispenser). Good thing about Manitowoc is it does not suck air from the drain like the other manufacturers!

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    116
    Scotsman's going to have a tough time with the prodigys, they'd have to seal up the water trough, which the covers over it are always going to leak, plus any air going through the water pump motor, hole for the water level sensor, thermistors, etc. Remember, the negative air flow will go through the food zone, under the evaporator, and through the water reservoir to the condensing compartment. Manitowoc will probably have the easiest time, plates over the top of the evaporator, and maybe seal up the water pump and they'd probably be good. The water level probe already has a gasket between it and the base, and the food zone is completely molded separate from the condensing compartment. The water pump has a o-ring, but I think you might still get leakage where the clips hold it in, but I could be wrong. Basically, over the top of the evaporator is going to be the main culprit, and they addressed it on the I series already

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    69

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by cleanice View Post
    Thanks Tommy knocker... yup, got my patent applications on file.

    Yes, I too think my tests are the norm. Lets see what NSF does about machines in the field after they are tested. (Next meeting is 1st week of October) NSF is supposed to pull the NSF certification for machines that do not meet NSF standards. And, I believe there are some fixes for machines in the field so they meet NSF standards, which would mean a lot more work for professionals like yourself in the ice machine service business.

    The bottom line is I just can't believe that after all the testing is done that NSF is going to state publicly that sucking air from the floor drain into the ice bin "needs to be fixed, but we will "grandfather in" all the machines in the field that do this." Ugh!
    Wow Cleanice , I remember cleaning out ice machines, what a gross job. Never thought about air causing all that gunk in there. If a negative pressure existed inside that machine that would suck in all the air around it.
    If you succeed in building a add on hepa air system at a reasonable cost, you will become a rich man. Please keep us posted!

  12. #25
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Tarpon Springs, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by danbb View Post
    Scotsman's going to have a tough time with the prodigys, they'd have to seal up the water trough, which the covers over it are always going to leak, plus any air going through the water pump motor, hole for the water level sensor, thermistors, etc. Remember, the negative air flow will go through the food zone, under the evaporator, and through the water reservoir to the condensing compartment. Manitowoc will probably have the easiest time, plates over the top of the evaporator, and maybe seal up the water pump and they'd probably be good. The water level probe already has a gasket between it and the base, and the food zone is completely molded separate from the condensing compartment. The water pump has a o-ring, but I think you might still get leakage where the clips hold it in, but I could be wrong. Basically, over the top of the evaporator is going to be the main culprit, and they addressed it on the I series already
    We came up with the same final analysis: Scotsman Prodigy's basic design has got so many holes and cracks sucking outside air, that it might be easier to replace the whole machine. Hoshizaki has the same problem: too many cracks and holes. While Manitowoc seemed to pay more attention to sealing the machine and following the NSF standard that "Condensing compartments shall be sealed from the ice making compartment." Anyway, we were able to seal a Manitowoc enough in a 30 minute repair job (without removing the pumps, etc..) to bring the airflow down from from 450 fpm to 100 fpm. We then turned up the HEPA filter air blower to over 100 fpm and were able to over-power the dirty air from the condenser fan and keep the food zone clean.

  13. #26
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    Mar 2007
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    wedged in freezer shelf
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    So a remote piped unit will run quieter, make us more money AND get less dirty
    “If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”

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