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  1. #14
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    So you think 17 months of domocratic control of hte house caused overinflation of realestate markets, overaggerssive lending practices and a culture of barely legal and unethical manipulation of the securities market? Sure, whatever. The culture in Wall Street and the real edtate markets took a decade or more to reach it's pinnacle of manipulation and greed. The repeal of regulations, lack of oversight for years prior to 2008 caused the problems. Fannie & Freddie were jsut the front end. Whiel their lending guidlines were loose and part of hte problem. The real damage isn't making bad loans. Its' not properly idientifying the level of risk, pricing them accordingly, having adequate loss prevention and MOST improtantly, when reselling them into securities, you need ot represent them honestly or at least those buying the secruities need ot pay attention to what they are getting.

    You can make a loan to ANYONE.... so long as you have adequate down payment, insurance, loss prevention, and price it accordingly (part of loss prevention).

    Bank not managing their risks isn't the fault of congress. Its' the fault of greed and what appears to be "easy money".

    The systme was so messed up. Basically on paper the ROI of these mortgage back securities appearsed to be so good that demand shot up so high ,that htere was massive pressure to make loans, regardless of the risk. You have bank executive just screaming for voulme so they can stuff more mrotgages onto these pieces of paper.

    My wife is a mortgage lender and was a broker in the center of this mess in San Diego from abotu 2000-2004. LONG, long, long, before the dems took control. It was happening then. It just took 4 more years to blow up.

    I think historically, you can consistently take the policies of the administaration in power anywhere from 4-8 years prior to explain events.

    You don't blame Roosevelt for WWII happening and the Great Depression. Yuo can't even specifically blame Hoover. You actually need to look at Wilson's, Harding and Coolidge to look at how the end of WWI was handled and foreign and fiscal policies for the 20's.

    You don't blame Lincoln for the Civil War happening. You have to consider The 2 or 3 administrations prior. Heck, that war was brewing from the time the Constitution was ratified.

  2. #15
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    You miss one of the pertinent points:

    GW Bush (Bush Jr) asked Congress SEVENTEEN times to do something about the mess... the DEMS blocked it each time.

    When someone answers why the DEMS blocked it 17 times... we will have one of the reasons the crash happened.

    As to the foundation of the problem... well we need to go back to Bill Clinton: He was the one who pushed through the idea that loans had to me made to certain minority groups regardless of ability to pay them back.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

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  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Regardless of how one spins the so called facts... there is a simple truth here which cannot be denied:

    Congress, specifically the House of Reps, by Constitutional law, MUST originate ALL spending at the federal level... that is the LAW. So in a nutshell: whomever controls the house (and it is easier if they control the senate also) is responsible for the economic climate of the country.

    So you are saying that when Bush with a R controlled House and Senate sent us all 500 bucks while we were in the middle of two unfunded wars they were being responsible stewards of the economy. WOW.

    Sorry Dems and Libs... you are caught with irrefutable facts against you.

    That is open for debate

    Now you can amuse the folks who understand how things really work with your endless lies and spin... however when the smoke clears... the facts will not change.

    True for either side of the argument but typically condescending.

    Thought: Why would BHO need Bill Clinton to help him campaign... unless his re-election campaign is in SERIOUS trouble... Just common sense... something Dems and Libs are uncommonly short on... <grin>
    Just because previous Republican presidents had to stay home from the convention out of embarrassment doesn't mean the Democrats shouldn't step up and support their candidate.

  4. #17
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    Absolutely, rescission of Glass Steagall was a primary cause of this problem. But that was likely to happen under either party. Momentum was in that direction. Certainly GB would have signed it to law.

    Isn't the problem more fundamental than who's engineer at the throttle for a few miles of track? Doesn't the blame game obfuscate deeper systemic problems that we should be worried about?

    Every game needs rules and accountability or you have anarchy. Just as in HVAC, if you don't define the playing field quality get's lost in the race to the bottom. Yes Glass Steagall was an important counterbalance but let's look at the underlying game:

    Corporations purpose is to make profit.
    People will place judgement around this, I think there should be none. This is not "good" or "bad", it is what it is. A big piece of the board, part of the game. It doesn't get changed unless we do away with capitalism. Let's call corporations the fox.

    Governments purpose is to serve the people.
    The founding fathers had incredible vision, they saw that government was a necessary counterbalance to business. For this counterbalance to work effectively, government needs more power than business. Let's call government the dog.

    People need to be governments overseers. Systems tend to be corrupt by design, with unintended consequences an unavoidable result. People are the counterbalance to government and thus corporations, influencing adjustments to prevent unintended consequences from following a path to total destruction. Let's call people the hens.

    Again, do not attribute labels of good or bad to players, or pointless arguments result and ability to see and discuss the big picture is lost. The fox IS NOT BAD. The hen is not BAD. The dog is not BAD. They are all NECESSARY PARTS OF A HEALTHY, BALANCED ECOSYSTEM.

    If our country is a hen house, we are the hens, corporations are foxes, and government is the dog assigned to protect the hen-house. How can this system stay in balance if corporations are deemed "people" and superpac's are able to contribute endless funds to the dog? The people's position as overseer of the dog has been completely usurped, the healthy balance is lost. The distinction is critical to the balance of our three legged stool, if we lose it we lose the balance. Government's position as protector of people is becoming blurred, dog's ability to differentiate between fox and hen is vanishing. We are on the path to allowing government and corporations to completely marginalize us. If corporations are people now, soon government will be people. Eventually and the definition "people" as a distinction will cease to exist.

    If the fox is now defined as a hen, why does it matter who gets to drive the train for the next four miles? It matters little, the engineers all have essentially the same master and, while there may be slight variation in track choice, the direction and destination are quite fixed. We bicker, pointing fingers backwards. Divisively attempting to attribute blame, trying to define the enemy as one party or another. Why are we so myopically focused on our immediate worries of comfort that we don't look worriedly at our long term issues of survival?

    Folks, we should be looking forward and coming together. The enemy isn't a party, it's money. Big money. All interests take a back seat when big money is allowed a hand at the table. What ever party you are in we need to come together on some basic issues. We need to regain our 'personhood' or the rest matters little. If this super pac thing doesn't frighten you yet, please wake up?!

    The problem is that government can no longer serve us, unlimited campaign contributions mean government's role is redefined to serve corporate interests first, not ours. If we ignore this issue, the hen house becomes populated with foxes who will rule the roost. Ultimately it's an unsustainable design. A game without balance. A path to destruction. You have to admire the incredible brilliance of our founding fathers, they foresaw this.
    Last edited by tedkidd; 09-12-2012 at 11:55 AM.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    Just because previous Republican presidents had to stay home from the convention out of embarrassment doesn't mean the Democrats shouldn't step up and support their candidate.
    Spin, spin, spin...

    Dems had control of the house and senate starting in Jan of 2007. As far as I am concerned; that means the DEMS are responsible... yet they do not want to be accountable. Typical lib attitude.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    As to the foundation of the problem... well we need to go back to Bill Clinton: He was the one who pushed through the idea that loans had to me made to certain minority groups regardless of ability to pay them back.
    You think the loans to LMI and minorities was a primary cause? Look around, are low income houses the ones most often in forcelosure? Not even close. In terms of total dollars They are likely outnumbered 5:1 by McMansions, tract homes and other new construction. FHA and USDA programs were not drivign the sub prime market. They also didnt; force banks not to hodl adequate loss provision, and they definitely did not brokerages to get creative and bundle high risk loans with low risk loans and make it all look like a low risk investment.

    I'll say it again, you can make a loan to anyone. Its' how the loan is priced and resold and the potential losses are accounted for that make the difference.

    THe most dangerous loans and ones that most commonly failed were homes >$200k to those with "stated incomes". That's right, walk right up, claim you make 6 figures, sign and affdidavit and viola, you too could have a new mcmansion of your very own in sunny California, Las Vegas, Florida or not so sunny Michigan and Ohio. At least for a couel years until your ARM rate went up... on your interest only loan, which you had never intended to pay off, you would just refinance or sell it in 5-6 years when the value double again. You know, because home values were going to continue to rise 10%+ every year, well ahead of hte rise in incomes.

    Government has little to blame, other than allowing a big fat party to go on under hte watch of multiple presidents. measures would of had to be taken back in 2000 to stop the crash. By 2007 or even 2005, it was a forgone conclusion.

    Oh, and the economic growth seen during Bush's years... how much of that do you think was driven by a bubble in the real estate market. A lot of it. Just as the bubble in the technology market drove falsely drive balanced budgets during Clinton years, and various governemnt handouts and tax cuts have falsely slowed the down economy.

    Some day, we will still need to pay the piper. I don't see either party making the hard decisions to drive thsi country forward, because it would like pi** off a lot of people and they wouldn't get re-elected. The best course, if oftne not the most popular one. As logn as most voters are not even paying taxes or nowhere near their fair share, we'll continue to get politicians that pander to the masses. Rather than really do what's best for everyone. I supposed you coudl argue that's how representation works.

  7. #20
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    Here's an exceprt from an aritcle I dug up:

    "Stripped of the jargon, it is now quite easy to see what happened. Banks were taking large gambles with precious little capital in reserve if the bets went wrong. Individuals were borrowing at levels that were only sustainable if the value of their share portfolios and homes continued to rise year after year. Governments assumed booming tax receipts were permanent and increased public spending.
    In August 2007, the air started to escape from this gigantic bubble. It happened in three stages. The financial sector was the first to feel the impact, because while it was evident that almost every bank had been up to its eyeballs in investments linked to the American housing market, no one knew just how much money each institution stood to lose. The financial system grinds to a halt if banks refuse to lend to each other, as they did in August 2007.
    It took more than a year for the second stage of the crisis to unfold. During that period there were a number of developments: the finance crisis deepened, house and share prices fell, and inflationary pressures increased after a sharp jump in the cost of fuel. When Lehman Brothers went bankrupt in September 2008, the global economy was ready to blow and the next six months saw the biggest slump since the Great Depression.
    Governments arrested the slide into a 1930s-style slump by co-ordinated action, but wrecked their own finances in the process. Bailing out the banks was expensive, particularly since much lower levels of output reduced tax revenues. Banks felt they had too much debt. Consumers felt they had too much debt. By mid-2009, most governments also felt they had too much debt. It was not a comfortable place to be.Central banks tried to help out by making credit cheap and plentiful. They cut interest rates and used unconventional methods – such as buying bonds in exchange for cash – to boost the money supply. The hope was this would stimulate a private sector recovery and so provide a breathing space in which governments could repair their finances.
    The attempt to solve a crisis caused by credit with even more credit has, predictably enough, proved a failure. It has been a bit like the motorist desperately pumping air into a tyre with a slow puncture: it works for a while, but eventually the tyre goes flat again.
    " - excepert from "The Guardian" newspaper online.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/e...-myths-sustain

    I don't see any mention of bad loans being the issue. It's being overleveraged with inadequate reserves to cover losses that the real problem.

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    You think the loans to LMI and minorities was a primary cause? Look around, are low income houses the ones most often in forcelosure? Not even close. In terms of total dollars They are likely outnumbered 5:1 by McMansions, tract homes and other new construction. FHA and USDA programs were not drivign the sub prime market. They also didnt; force banks not to hodl adequate loss provision, and they definitely did not brokerages to get creative and bundle high risk loans with low risk loans and make it all look like a low risk investment.

    I'll say it again, you can make a loan to anyone. Its' how the loan is priced and resold and the potential losses are accounted for that make the difference.

    THe most dangerous loans and ones that most commonly failed were homes >$200k to those with "stated incomes". That's right, walk right up, claim you make 6 figures, sign and affdidavit and viola, you too could have a new mcmansion of your very own in sunny California, Las Vegas, Florida or not so sunny Michigan and Ohio. At least for a couel years until your ARM rate went up... on your interest only loan, which you had never intended to pay off, you would just refinance or sell it in 5-6 years when the value double again. You know, because home values were going to continue to rise 10%+ every year, well ahead of hte rise in incomes.

    Government has little to blame, other than allowing a big fat party to go on under hte watch of multiple presidents. measures would of had to be taken back in 2000 to stop the crash. By 2007 or even 2005, it was a forgone conclusion.

    Oh, and the economic growth seen during Bush's years... how much of that do you think was driven by a bubble in the real estate market. A lot of it. Just as the bubble in the technology market drove falsely drive balanced budgets during Clinton years, and various governemnt handouts and tax cuts have falsely slowed the down economy.

    Some day, we will still need to pay the piper. I don't see either party making the hard decisions to drive thsi country forward, because it would like pi** off a lot of people and they wouldn't get re-elected. The best course, if oftne not the most popular one. As logn as most voters are not even paying taxes or nowhere near their fair share, we'll continue to get politicians that pander to the masses. Rather than really do what's best for everyone. I supposed you coudl argue that's how representation works.
    Read the first post:

    Bush Jr tried SEVENTEEN times to get congress to look into the run-away mortgage mess... the DEMS blocked it every time.

    There is no way to explain around that fact.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Read the first post:

    Bush Jr tried SEVENTEEN times to get congress to look into the run-away mortgage mess... the DEMS blocked it every time.

    There is no way to explain around that fact.
    I'm saying it was runnign away long before even Bush's term and it's wasn't the mortgage side that was the primary problem. IT was a major contributor, but without the demand from wall street for these pieces of paper, the mortgage brokers wouldn't have been making so many bad mortgages. The problem was demand driven not supply driven. The greed was fueled between the lending instituations, not the consumer side.

    I'll bet being a Republican the assumption was that it was a issue with lending guidelines to LMI's and sub prime loans, and there was no request to look at Wall Street and what was going on there.

    Suddenly tightening up lending guidelines would have been a shock to the system, same as raising rates. You'd actually have to do both a hte same time, as we are now. Tighten up guidelines and regulation that should have been there, but lowering rates to allow the market ot correct itself.

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Regardless of how one spins the so called facts... there is a simple truth here which cannot be denied:

    Congress, specifically the House of Reps, by Constitutional law, MUST originate ALL spending at the federal level... that is the LAW. So in a nutshell: whomever controls the house (and it is easier if they control the senate also) is responsible for the economic climate of the country.
    So how long has the Republicans now held the House and why are they blaming Obama for the county's woes?
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post

    Isn't the problem more fundamental than who's engineer at the throttle for a few miles of track? Doesn't the blame game obfuscate deeper systemic problems that we should be worried about?

    Every game needs rules and accountability or you have anarchy. Just as in HVAC, if you don't define the playing field quality get's lost in the race to the bottom. Yes Glass Steagall was an important counterbalance but let's look at the underlying game:

    Corporations purpose is to make profit.
    People will place judgement around this, I think there should be none. This is not "good" or "bad", it is what it is. A big piece of the board, part of the game. It doesn't get changed unless we do away with capitalism. Let's call corporations the fox.

    Governments purpose is to serve the people.
    The founding fathers had incredible vision, they saw that government was a necessary counterbalance to business. For this counterbalance to work effectively, government needs more power than business. Let's call government the dog.

    People need to be governments overseers. Systems tend to be corrupt by design, with unintended consequences an unavoidable result. People are the counterbalance to government and thus corporations, influencing adjustments to prevent unintended consequences from following a path to total destruction. Let's call people the hens.

    Again, do not attribute labels of good or bad to players, or pointless arguments result and ability to see and discuss the big picture is lost.

    If this super pac thing doesn't frighten you yet, please wake up?!

    The problem is that government can no longer serve us, unlimited campaign contributions mean government's role is redefined to serve corporate interests first, not ours.

    Ultimately it's an unsustainable design. A game without balance. A path to destruction. You have to admire the incredible brilliance of our founding fathers, they foresaw this.
    You guys want to blame the 'other party' for this? To what end? You really want to know whose fault this is? Ours, all of us. Grow up, take responsibility, then we can move forward together. Or bicker and accomplish nothing.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    So how long has the Republicans now held the House and why are they blaming Obama for the county's woes?
    They only hold the house and not the senate. Harry Reid, senate majority leader, is able to block any meaningful legislation.

    BHO goes around the house by signing executive orders.
    Avatar is a tribute to my Great Grandfather, Andrew Stewart. This pin was one of his advertisements for his heating and plumbing business. I never knew him but must of inherited his love of things mechanical since I am the only blue collar worker in the family

  13. #26
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    so if Bush is No good Obama is No good who is gonna fix the USA??

    I get lost in all you mericans commie this lefty that demacrat this etc

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