Replywhat about the pumps ? are they pumping enough gpm for the entire building? what about strainers on the pumps and at the heat pumps?
Regular Guest
All,
I was hope full to get some feedback how to best proceed.
Building info
The building is a commercial building that has a cooling tower out back (open loop with plate heat exchanger) and has a closed loop of glycol that runs through the entire building through plastic pipe. Throughout the building, we have heat pumps of various sizes (Most of them 2-3 ton units) that are ducted to the various offices.
We have service checks on the system every 6 months, including checking the PH of the loop and adding alga-cide to the cooling tower.
We have roughly 18 heat pumps in the building
Building history
The building always has had HVAC issues. Condensate leaks were very common due to clogged condensate lines. Occasional glycol leaks also happened from time to time. And on average, about once a year we would have a system failure (Usually the cooling tower would get clogged, turned off, trip breakers, etc...) causing the building to get very warm.
Remodel info
We went through a remodel of the building, we changed the configuration of offices, we added three new entrances to the building, we removed some old units, and added some additional units. Also, we installed a brand new BAC cooling tower.
Also, just recently we cut down alot of trees around that building that did provide some shade on the building.
During the remodel, we drained the main loop once to change some plumbing. We also had a pipe break in an office which drained the loop again.
After the remodel
Now the remodel is over, we have heat pumps that trip out due to high head pressure everyday. On a good day, only one will trip. On a bad day, 10 of them will trip.
Main loop temperature is around 84 F on a day with 90 F outdoor temps.
Suggestions
Several suggestions have been made regarding the cause of our problems with the heat pumps tripping on high head pressure.
Not enough water flow to the units, The HVAC balancer showed up and did testing and found three units that were not getting enough water flow. These units have been tripping often, so that is no suprise. But the units that are getting good water flow, are also still tripping.
There has also been talk that our heat exchanger is not exhausting enough heat. I measured the temps today during 85 outdoor temps:
Water temp from tower = 67 F
Water temp to tower = 75 F
Water temp from building = 79 F
Water temp to building = 72 F
The plate heat exchanger is 20 years old (Same age as the building) and as far as we all know, never been taken apart.
Because of the leaks we have had in the past replacing the plastic pipe with copper pipe has been suggested. Problem is the cost of the copper would be very expensive.
There has been talk of acid flushing some of our heat pumps to hopefully to clear the clogs and increase the overall water flow.
My question - Is it worth the time, money, and labor to flush the heat pumps or should we simply replace the heat pumps with new ones?
The heat exchanger as far as everyone knows has never been taken apart. Looking at the temps listed above, I believe the heat exchanger might have some build up in it.
Suggestions
Based on the information presented above, what would you all recommend?
Start replacing the heat pumps that are problematic and replace our heat exchanger?
Questions/Comments/Concerns/Other Suggestions?
Professional Member*
what about the pumps ? are they pumping enough gpm for the entire building? what about strainers on the pumps and at the heat pumps?
Regular Guest
The pumps are pumping, we checked the amp draw and they are pulling about the right amount of amps (I forget the readings, I have them at work) But for 5 HP motors, they were pulling about 3/4 load.Originally Posted by chillerout1
There is just one strainer on the main loop, and it has been checked. Didn't find much in the strainers.
There are no strainers on the heat pumps
Professional Member*
If the old tower had scale, there is likely scale inside the heat exchanger. How good is your water treatment program?
Glycol also reduces heat transfer rate. Has the actual level of freeze protection for the glycol in this system been measured? Is it possible the level of protection is excessive for this application?
Is there a boiler on this loop?
Psychrometrics: the very foundation of HVAC. A comfort troubleshooter's best friend.
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Professional Member*
acid clean each heat pump isolating the unit.then with a 5 gallon bucket 1/2 water, puppy pump.hook up for pumping into the return reversed flush...start pump and pour the acid into the bucket..do one gallon per unit
"when in doubt...jump it out" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1qEZHhJubY
Regular Guest
My only concern wish acid clean is the cost of cost and labor of flushing the heat pumps vs. the cost of replacing the heat pumps.
The other recent theory I have thought of is - Air in the main loop. We have air bleeders in the attic, but I don't know if they are working.
Regular Guest
I measured our heat exchanger, it measures:
19” wide
57” tall
10.5” deep
Professional Member*
It should ALOT cheaper to run scale cleaner through the heat pumps than replacing them. I would assume there are valves isolating each unit. Your contractor just needs to monitor the PH of the descaling solution while cleaning the units.
I had to do this to a building last year. Its not a big deal. Your contractor should be able to monitor heat exchanger approach and tell definitivly whether or not the heat exchanger(s) are fouled.
Regular Guest
The acid flush to descale the units isn't hard on the components? With our heat pumps already 20 years old, I was leaning towards replacement.
Professional Member*
No, as long as the technician monitors the PH.Soda Ash will be added to lower the PH and keep it at the acceptable levels while they are running it through the heat excangers. Its only going to remove scale and nothing else.
Professional Member*
again did you check pump gpm? the problem may be a fouled heat exchanger
Regular Guest
No, we have not been able to check the flow rate from any of the pumps. There is not fittings on each side of the pump to plug into. To install fittings, we would have to drain the tower and the main loop. Something I hope to do when it cools down.
I agree we may have a fouled heat exchanger, but at the current moment the only thing I can measure is amps going to the pumps.
On the main loop side, I did notice we have a pressure guage on the supply and return. They are showing 33 PSI supply to the building and 22 PSI return from the building, so roughly 11 PSI drop through the building loop.
Regular Member
Your running on borrowed time "if" this truly is the case. I have seen several times where the water stops flowing, the WSHP's keep running, The PVC has a melt down and the next thing you know your stairwells resemble the Niagara Falls
I would get a handle on preventing such an occurrence
Regular Guest
Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it.
We already had this happen
We had a pipe burst in a large conference room, all 100+ gallons of glycol drained in our conference room, it was quite a mess.
The suggestion has been brought up to replace all of the plastic pipe with copper, problem is the price. I imagine it would cost us $100,000 or so to replace all of the pipe with copper.
Regular Member
100+gallons you lucky bastard !!Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it.
We already had this happen
We had a pipe burst in a large conference room, all 100+ gallons of glycol drained in our conference room, it was quite a mess.
The suggestion has been brought up to replace all of the plastic pipe with copper, problem is the price. I imagine it would cost us $100,000 or so to replace all of the pipe with copper.I have seen thousands of gallons land on, well nothing water proof and it all cost a ton to replace, not to mention the man hours billed.
100K sounds like an investment to me, but lets say things are tight....
Have flow switches installed at each and every last WSHP, Interlock your EMS (should you have one) with flow, temps, etc..
Best way to go though, as I am certain you already know, go with something that does not melt when bad things happen
Regular Guest
What is:
WSHP?
EMS?
Regular Member
My Bad....
WSHP = Water Source Heat Pump/Could be AC only in your case? (same result though)
EMS= Energy Management System
Regular Guest
Ah, I think I now understand.
Basically your advise is to have sensors and controls in place, should a leak/malfunction happen, shut down systems and waterflow to reduce the amount of damage, correct?
We really have no central monitoring of the heat pumps. We have one honeywell controller that controls wether to run the cooling tower or boilers based on the loop temperature.
A then small controls on the boilers and cooling tower to control the pumps/fans/burners on those units.
The heat pumps are stand alone units with thermostats and simply put heat or cold into the water, depending on demand. Its a very simple, yet complex system.
Again, I really appreciate the info you provided.
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