# Thread: Laws of Thermodynamics?

1. Originally Posted by Andy Schoen
Or perhaps more correctly, the total sum of energy in the universe is zero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

No need to figure out where energy came from. And the First Law still applies.
Speculative. Energy is after all a mathematical concept, as are positive and negative. In any case, from where did the positive and negative energy originate? Suppose we invent a new physics term, "absolute energy", which is defined as the sum of the absolute values of the positive and negative energy components in the universe, or of some arbitrary closed system. What's to prevent us from doing this? So the question becomes, where did the absolute energy come from? (Note that this is just another way of asking the same question again).

2. Originally Posted by hvacrmedic
Speculative.
Certainly, it is not a scientific hypothesis. But it does provide a nice explanation of where energy came from in the first place, if it cannot be created or destroyed. In other words, it didn't come from anywhere.

Originally Posted by hvacrmedic
So the question becomes, where did the absolute energy come from? (Note that this is just another way of asking the same question again).
That you are. Energy is energy. What purpose does it make to redefine it? A waste of intellectual effort in my humble opinion. James Maxwell had it correct. And thermodynamic law remains the basis of all natural science (at least as long as I will live).

The only question here is if positive energy existed at T=0, where did it come from? Or if energy was zero at T=0 (the more elegant solution, IMHO), what created the positive/negative energy to begin with?

3. Originally Posted by hvacrmedic
I borrowed his train and referred to relavity of motion, but I wasn't necessarily referring to any of Einstien's original hypotheses, and don't in general subscribe to his version of relativity. The question here is whether energy can be created from nothing, and that's a question that's outside the realm of physics. It may even be a meaningless question.

Or, it may be VERY meaningful, yet be beyond our comprehension.

We might hypothesize, that energy could not have come from what we conceive to be "nothing," but it is really nothing? Did God act as the source for this energy, and in fact, use his energy to create ALL matter and energy? Did he move energy from another dimension of reality?

At this point, we can stick safely with the understanding that we have here, and trust that there is a far greater understanding that we may never achieve....

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Originally Posted by Andy Schoen
Certainly, it is not a scientific hypothesis. But it does provide a nice explanation of where energy came from in the first place, if it cannot be created or destroyed. In other words, it didn't come from anywhere.

That you are. Energy is energy. What purpose does it make to redefine it? A waste of intellectual effort in my humble opinion. James Maxwell had it correct. And thermodynamic law remains the basis of all natural science (at least as long as I will live).

The only question here is if positive energy existed at T=0, where did it come from? Or if energy was zero at T=0 (the more elegant solution, IMHO), what created the positive/negative energy to begin with?
another point of view maybe? the first law defines the physic in OUR dimension and at the time concept we understand currently. maybe when the study of physic advance we'll discover more and see thing from different angle?

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