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  1. #1
    I'm having a second hand smoke problems in a 2000 sqr ft bar. The builiding has a standard residential heating / AC unit installed. My question is what is the best strategy for make up air / and or clean air? I've talked to a few contractors about it, and I get different answers. I just want to make sure I do the right thing before I start. My options are:

    1. Ceiilng hung smoke eater.

    2. HRV w/ CO2 detector. This should suck air from the ceiling and supply fresh air to floor mounted returns

    3. Similar system as #2 w/o the HRV. (two fans, CO2 sensor)

    There is no other make up air in the building, however, it is a old construction with lots of leaks and two bathroom fans.

    My Manual J suggested that I needed about 700 - 900CFM of make up air, which I believe should be dependent on CO2 levels. (which should change as people leave and enter the establishment)

    I was quoted a 525CFM HRV by Fantech. It seems that this unit and two bathroom fans should make up about 700 CFM. However, the efficency of this unit is 55%. Is it smarter to get a slightly bigger unit and run it slower to get more effiency? Or is 55% even worth it? A lot of the residential HRVs hit 70% efficency.

    Thanks in advance!


  2. #2
    It will also depend on how often the unit is maintained. If not that often, as tends to happen in bars, see if you can modulate the existing air handler up to 100% outside air supply. More OA will dilute the air inside and exhaust the same percent of the contaminated room air.

    Make sure the unit can handle the load. You will be paying higher utility bills, but it will do the same thing as a separate system.

    You may want to place partitions in areas of the bar to prevent air mixing. And you can place more air in the non-smoking section to keep a positive pressure and/or exhausting air from the smoking section to keep it under negative pressure.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Lubbock Texas
    Posts
    773
    There are systems out there that will solve the problem with no more fresh air. Im from Texas and over seas installing 3 systems in Guayaquil Ecuador right now working in four casinos with the same problems. They have very little fresh air since no air turn over. ASHREA fresh air standards works with about 5 air changes per hour or doing the same with technology with other stand alone equipment. A smoke eater is a brand name and they have a very costly high maintenance program with them and don´t work well anyway for smoke odors. I have changed building pressures and drew the smoke away from the bar area but sometimes this causes other problems if not designed in the building plańs.
    My specialty is casinos one of our jobs I have done was featured in Engineered Systems Magazine in 2004 for energy savings and smoke removal I think it was in 2004 . Don´t have a link to it right now but go there and do a search on Genesis Air or Photo Catalysis. Or google Genesisair as one word and there are two articles with us mentioned.
    Paul

  4. #4
    Originally posted by marauderx
    It will also depend on how often the unit is maintained. If not that often, as tends to happen in bars, see if you can modulate the existing air handler up to 100% outside air supply. More OA will dilute the air inside and exhaust the same percent of the contaminated room air.

    Make sure the unit can handle the load. You will be paying higher utility bills, but it will do the same thing as a separate system.

    You may want to place partitions in areas of the bar to prevent air mixing. And you can place more air in the non-smoking section to keep a positive pressure and/or exhausting air from the smoking section to keep it under negative pressure.
    So you're thinking forget the HRV and go with option similar to #3. Outside air regulated according to a CO2 sensor. (no HRV) Is there away to calculate cost of outside makeup air vs a 50% gain HRV?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    NASA can recycle urine and you can drink it, but I would not do that unless it was my only option.

    With something designed to exhaust some of the smoke, bring in some fresh air as well as treat the air being recirculated, I think you can provide decent IAQ without going to the ventilation levels ASHRAE wants.
    The way we build has a greater impact on our comfort, energy consumption and IAQ than any HVAC system we install.

    http://www.ductstrap.com/

  6. #6
    Thanks for your input.

    Another contractor suggested using a Honeywell 7460B w/ indoor air quality control and purge capabilities. I believe it has outdoor enthalpy control also. Is this the smartest way to go? What is the best indoor air quality sensor to use? A CO or CO2 sensor? The way he described it was the controller would open the make-up air damper whenever the outside air was colder than the inside air (during the cooling cycle). It would also open the outside air damper whenever the indoor air quality was poor (cigarette smoke filled). Does this sound like a good option for a residential type system in a commercial bar? Thanks in advance, this is a great site!

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