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  1. #53
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    Nov 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigjoe View Post
    Oh great, the kool aid metaphor... So what is your advice for new guys entering the field who want to go to school? Go the traditional, more expensive route rather than go through the UA's program? So far, there's been nothing that has given me any amount of regret for joining.
    Kool-Aid, indeed. You seem to have the socialist attitude that somebody else owes you an education in your desired career path. Why do you feel this way?

    Do you really think that your "union education" is FREE? REALLY? Do you not see the "cost" ?

    In an open shop, the cost of education is typically shared between the employee and the employer. Fair enough? I pay for you to go to school, so you can become a better employee....making more money for the company, so in return you can be paid more? Fair enough?

    So, who pays the cost of your education in a union shop? Duh, you (via dues), and your employer....but in the union environment, you also get to sell your soul to the union. You are no longer free to let your skills and work ethic carry you as far, and as fast as you can. You're locked in to "work rules". If you're a slacker, that's great.....if you're truly an ambitious go-getter, you will soon learn that your arrangement inhales deeply.

    Then, there's that other pesky issue with unions.....the adversarial relationship that is inherently formed between employer and employee....forever. Ask yourself an honest question. Why would any self-respecting man voluntarily go to work with a company in a situation that requires a permanent intermediary? That's exactly what you do when you "go union". Unions pit employer against employee by nature. That's why they exist.

    Would you consider marriage to a woman with whom your relationship would forever require an intermediary.....to determine who could and couldn't do what.....and who must and must not do what?

    Think about it.....really.....Why on earth would you get up every morning, and go to work in a relationship that perpetuates mental and emotional warfare between yourself and your employer? Nuts to that.....be a free man, and go where you want to be, and do what you want to do....

    Is selling your soul, and forever hindering your ability (and giving up your right) to progress at whatever level your skills and work ethic allow, really worth the extra bucks?

    What value do you place on your pride and self-respect? is it worth trading for bondage?

    I'd much rather pay for my own training, and retain my freedom.....
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  2. #54
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    Nov 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Things to consider are whether or not organized labor is helping or hindering the overall U.S. economy. I am all for any American worker getting the most that they can from what ever job they are doing....unless that job is costing me money through government taxation. For this reason, I am completely against organized labor being involved in any government job or being supported by government through regulations and laws that promote organized labor.

    If we take government intervention out of the Union debate, organized labor unions would have to go back to being the organized crime from which they came from. Take government intervention completely out of our labor issues other than the overall government regulations that prevent abuse of American workers and labor unions cannot exist.

    Yes, there is a small faction of American workers who are making more money and have more benefits than the majority of Americans are making. The fact is though, that all American's who pay taxes are paying for those higher wages and better benefits along with the billions of dollars that go to organized labor unions. Government forces Americans to pay for an organization that in turn supports those politicians that continue to pass laws and regulations that give organized labor more power.

    This is Socialism, pure and simple. And Socialism is a pyramid scam that can only end up with a massive amount of people working for a little bit of nothing to support a small elitist class living in luxury. The question we all need to ask is; When organized labor controls all workers, are we going to be a worker or part of the elite few who will rule?
    Well said....but you have to put the Kool-Aid glass down to "get it"
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  3. #55
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    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigjoe View Post
    Oh great, the kool aid metaphor... So what is your advice for new guys entering the field who want to go to school? Go the traditional, more expensive route rather than go through the UA's program? So far, there's been nothing that has given me any amount of regret for joining.
    All of the larger merit shop companies I deal with provide technical school through ABC and ACCA organizations that are every bit as good as union schools, which are good, but with more diversity of training. The smaller merit shop contractors I deal with have in house training specific to their needs and send their technicians to training seminars put on by supporting distributors.

    I myself went through the ABC sheet metal apprenticeship back in the days when ABC was first established in Maryland. Even at the very beginning, the ABC training program was very good. I have since taught a third year HVAC apprenticeship class as an adjunct professor for ABC/ACCA at a Maryland college. So, quality training and apprentice programs are not specific to labor unions.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    central Florida
    Posts
    154
    I am in a right to work state.Just like to point out a couple of things that I have observed.It was said that in a right to work stae wages are higher as well as better benefits with non right to work.But in te state I am in we do not have all the dues excessive taxation.The cost of living is generally less ( at least here than where I am from).And yes you can be fired for any reason without notice but without good cause they will still have to pay unemployment.If you are a quality worker why would you stay working for someone who treats you that way anyway? Chances are if they had no reason to let you go and you are a quality employee that they treat the staff badly anyway and life is just too short to deal with that.It does make it easier to let a bad apple go without a long drawn out process that hurts the quality people working for you.I also know a large company down here that has mix of union and non.Union had to fight for raise and non union had been getting thiers regularly.The highest paid non skilled job is non union.But at least the union folks get paid for the time they walk on breaks.By the way if the union shop gave bloated and unrealistic benefits to it's members then why should we pay that tab through our tax dollars. That is not right since it was caused by somenone elses irresponsibility.Sorry this was so long. I hope you all are having a great Holiday.

  5. #57
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    Mar 2003
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    7,326
    As a Signatory contractor, I cna clearly state that youdont uderstand trade unions, and how they operate. Close to 78% of the business I do is with private industry, where there is no governemnt incentive. I can easily look that up in my Quickbooks program, knowing all of my clients and plotting them in one fo the handy dandy offerings quickbooks has available. So, there is no government intervention in 78% of my business. We are still the chosen service provided for these businesses, who are mostly open shop companies. They CHOOSE to do business with us becuase of the knowledge of my men, and the manner in which they provide service. The owners know we are union, and respectfully ask that we dont undertake any organizing activity while onsite. Its not like we do that anyway.

    Two particular businesses, I personally designed their production plants, and they manufacture products made here in pa that used to be made overseas in china. In both cases, these are companies that were built here, and now employ greater than the minimum amount of people in the new healthcare bill, and will now have to provide health insurance for all their employees. These are Americans, making good money, employing other americans. This isnt going to change, and in fact, one of the two is preparing to expand fourfold into a larger plant as soon as we can get desing done. If us union folks are soo bad, and can only work on projects subsidized by government, why the F*** are they continuing to use our services?? there are open shops around locally. Well, for one, they did try to use open shop to provide services, and their production went down by two thirds due to unskilled guys trying to understand a highly technical plant that us dumb union guys built. They chose to call us back in after six months of poor performance and losing money. In two weeks time they were back on track after my guys fixed the other guys bad habits.

    In another case, we took over a chain of seven ice rinks. They used to have two open shops guys there all of the time, at a rate about half of ours. The two guys could never actually keep things running as per design. They came to us for our skills. We have bene doing service there now for four years. They have seen their costs for service go down dramatically, as my guys fix things right the first time, not the tenth.

    While I am sure there are open shop guys out there who can do the same, in these parts of the world, the talent level is day/night, as are wages. The level of skills in ourlocal is pretty good, since most guys go on at night on their own time to enhance the apprenticeship program training by taking advanced training at night. I went to night classes for eight years once I finished the apprenticeship.

    As far as apprentices, the reality is that an apprentice is limited "by his own ability". In other words, those who show intiiative and skills do in fact progress at a faster rate. They get higher wages, more opportunity, and typically become the creram of the crop. There is nothing to state they cannot. The "scale" so often referred to is effectively minimum wage.
    The apprentice/jourenyman thing is simply a way of identifying when an apprentice has put in enough time to be a journeymen in terms of hours. If this is soo bad, hell let's change this throught the country. College kids could say they are negineers after twelve credits instead of 120. They could be doctors at say thirty credits in lieu of 160. Oh, forget it, lets just let people say they are whomever they want to be with no benckmarking whatsoever!!!

    Lets be clear on this. The union apprenticeship is a way of benckmarking that a guy has been trained to do certain things, and has passed tests at the 80% level of understanding. The schooling is paid for via dues checkoffs, so that the previous generation pays for the guys coming up behind. (Wow, this is terrible!!) While going to school, the idea is that the guy will also be trained on the job, learning hands on skills as he progresses through the school. By the end, he should be trained to know the book side of things, and hands on for basic theory and day to day stuff. They then specialize via advanced training at night or manufacturer classes, or on their own. Sound just like the way the rest of sociiety does things, except for the fact that the journeymen pay for the schooling. Damn socialists.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,350
    What value do you place on your pride and self-respect? is it worth trading for bondage?

    I'd much rather pay for my own training, and retain my freedom.....[/QUOTE]

    Wow! A bit over the top. You are only required to work for the contractors any of the contractors for 5 of years. Let's not forget that the wages and benefits you receive during your 5 years are way above market standard for that 5 years.

    Pride and self respect are relative to the individual not how and where they obtain their training. Once you have your training what you do with it us up to you. The training doesn't determine your self respect you do.
    I STARTED WITH NOTHING, AND I STILL HAVE MOST OF IT!

  7. #59
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by allstar08 View Post
    Wow! A bit over the top. You are only required to work for the contractors any of the contractors for 5 of years. Let's not forget that the wages and benefits you receive during your 5 years are way above market standard for that 5 years.

    Pride and self respect are relative to the individual not how and where they obtain their training. Once you have your training what you do with it us up to you. The training doesn't determine your self respect you do.
    You're trading your freedom for security.....sound familiar?

    If unions are the be-all, end-all, why has the nationwide percentage of union workforce dropped from 20% to 11% in the last 25 years?
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  8. #60
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    Mar 2012
    Location
    Omaha NE
    Posts
    109
    On this Labor Day, let's not forget all the contributions organized labor has given us that we now take for granted. Like the 40 hr. work week, paid time off, benefits like healthcare and pension...
    Unions have been taking a beating on conservative radio for years, but the fact is, that there are not many non-government union workers left.
    I just started a new (non-union) job recently, and I am told "we do not have sick leave". They have Paid time off (PTO) after 1 year of employment. PTO is vacation and sick leave all tied together with a pretty bow, the only problem being that they cut the amount of total time that can be taken off, in half !

    The reasoning behind this benefit cut (that many employers are adopting) is "some people take advantage of sick days". I know, some people do take advantage. Some people also abuse alcohol...Can we not deal with the offenders and not punish everyone for the bad behavior of a few?

    Corporations definitely have the upper hand at this time in American history.

  9. #61
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    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    You're trading your freedom for security.....sound familiar?

    If unions are the be-all, end-all, why has the nationwide percentage of union workforce dropped from 20% to 11% in the last 25 years?
    Of that 11%, most are now government employees.

    As for the claims of union contractors working on public sector projects, you'd best believe that government money is involved somehow. Otherwise, there is no need for public sector projects to have to pay the higher cost of union companies.

    One of the many ways that government supports organized labor is to require that any project that uses any government money must pay prevailing union wages.

    How it works is that a company wanting to put in an ice rink in a neighborhood will go to the government and ask for a loan based on that ice rink bringing in money to bolster the economy of the neighborhood. Government provides a low interest loan with tax payer money with the stipulation that the ice rink be built under rules that require prevailing wages be paid so that union contractors are able to successfully bid on the job.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #62
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    Feb 2012
    Posts
    199
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Kool-Aid, indeed. You seem to have the socialist attitude that somebody else owes you an education in your desired career path. Why do you feel this way?

    Do you really think that your "union education" is FREE? REALLY? Do you not see the "cost" ?

    In an open shop, the cost of education is typically shared between the employee and the employer. Fair enough? I pay for you to go to school, so you can become a better employee....making more money for the company, so in return you can be paid more? Fair enough?

    So, who pays the cost of your education in a union shop? Duh, you (via dues), and your employer...
    Shortened for relevancy...

    Where did I say or give the impression that anything is owed to me?
    Where did I say that the UA is cost free?

    In an open shop, do all employers share this mind frame that they should send their techs or those interested in wanting a continued education to school? No. Do those types of employers exist? Of course. You can tell me how YOU run things but again, that's irrelevant as were not talking about you or your company. If this was universally accepted than fine, but it isn't. The UA has given me this opportunity. I know the type of student I am, I know the type of worker I am, and I know what my goals are. During the (~7 month) waiting period when I applied to the UA, not only did I enroll in an HVAC program at college but, I also contacted many employers within the area. I didn't sit around and just wait to hear from the UA in hopes of them giving me everything, I actually got off my ass and tried to be proactive. No one gave me an opportunity so I took whatever came my way, hence joining the UA. Sure I could decline their offer and continue going down that dead end path and achieve nothing but why should I have to do that? Fair enough for you? Of course not.


    RoBoTeq
    I don't disagree with anything you say. See my reply to John.

  11. #63
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    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by drkglass01 View Post
    On this Labor Day, let's not forget all the contributions organized labor has given us that we now take for granted. Like the 40 hr. work week, paid time off, benefits like healthcare and pension...
    Unions have been taking a beating on conservative radio for years, but the fact is, that there are not many non-government union workers left.
    I just started a new (non-union) job recently, and I am told "we do not have sick leave". They have Paid time off (PTO) after 1 year of employment. PTO is vacation and sick leave all tied together with a pretty bow, the only problem being that they cut the amount of total time that can be taken off, in half !

    The reasoning behind this benefit cut (that many employers are adopting) is "some people take advantage of sick days". I know, some people do take advantage. Some people also abuse alcohol...Can we not deal with the offenders and not punish everyone for the bad behavior of a few?

    Corporations definitely have the upper hand at this time in American history.
    Yep! Labor Day is absolutely a tribute to American Socialism.
    .
    .
    .

    .
    .
    For those who are not aware of it, the Eugene Debs on that poster is one of the most honored person for labor unions;
    Eugene Debs in History of Labor Unions

    Eugene Debs (1855-1926) was the president of the American Railway Union and a founding member of the Social Democratic Party of America. Born in Indiana, he dropped out of high school and went to work for the Terre Haute & Indianapolis Railroad at the age of fourteen. He soon became active in the local Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen. In 1893, he helped organize the American Railway Union and became its first president.

    During the Pullman strike of 1894, Debs instructed members of the ARU to support Pullman employees by refusing to handle Pullman cars, which were a vital part of the nation's passenger rail system. Debs defied a court order demanding that union leaders cease in their encouragement of the strike and was subsequently sentenced to six months in jail. Shortly thereafter he embraced socialism, helped found the Social Democratic Party of America, and ran for president five times as a socialist candidate.

    During World War I, Debs publicly opposed American intervention in the war and consequently was convicted under the 1918 Espionage Act, which imposed sweeping restrictions on speech and actions deemed detrimental to the war effort. Imprisoned in the Atlanta federal
    penitentiary, Debs ran for president from his jail cell and received more than 900,000 votes in 1920.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  12. #64
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    Apr 2010
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    working overtime
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    For those that. Choose to enter tis thread only to bash unions why not leave your comments to yourself. It seems to be the same few people to do this in every thread that has something to do with unions. We all know your thoughts why not leave the topic alone so that we can have productive conversation.

  13. #65
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    Apr 2010
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    working overtime
    Posts
    851
    Some people on this site are union and some are choosing to go union for one reason or another and that is are choice. My reason is not that owed anything or am lazy. I believe I will receive a higher education. I will be more qualified and be able to perform at a higher level for my customers and employer

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