Compare Heat Pumps - Broan FT4BI iQ Drive vs.Trane XL20i

[catmanacman]

I am so disappointed. Got word from the Broan dealer who did all the testing, measuring, and load calculation at my home on Tuesday. Due to circumstances beyond his control related to prior commitments, he will not be able to commit to doing the work for me at this time. As a result, he has declined to provide a proposal (i.e. estimate $$$).

Boohoo. Now looking for another reputable Broan dealer in Brevard County, FL. Wish me luck!

He did not to work with you because of the discounted price ,and probably thought you would nit pick the install costing him more time and effort on a discounted install

[Florida Joy]

He did not to work with you because of the discounted price ,and probably thought you would nit pick the install costing him more time and effort on a discounted install

Yeah... so why did he offer to discount the price? I'd never have known about Broan being an RE Michel product or there being an employee (my son's) discount available if HE HADN'T OFFERED IT. Doesn't make sense to me. It's water over the bridge (or under the bridge if there's no tropical storm in your neighborhood), so let it be!

Besides, my son told me today that his employee discount isn't all that much!

[Florida Joy]

Is your 17 SEER goal mostly about getting the rebate or actual energy savings?

17 SEER is not my goal... I think it was my answer to your question, which went something like: "At what SEER do the really big utility rebates kick-in?"

Your current 3.5 ton system that you stated is barely hanging on keeps up, I'm sure a properly designed/setup 3 ton could keep you just as cool.

I'm not so sure I'd be happy with a new unit keeping me "just as cool". My 3.5 ton is "keeping up" because of two overlapping sets of circumstances.

First, I've lowered my expectations regarding comfort in favor of being able to pay my electric bill when it comes due every month, i.e., I turned up the t-stat to 77 and it pretty much maintains the temperature at 77-78 degrees. I sit and/or sleep under ceiling fans most days because my comfort level is 74-75 degrees during the day... I prefer around 70 at night, but can't afford the electric bill.

Second, it's been a relatively mild, dry summer... ODDB has been <92 degrees most days with lower than normal rainfall all year, thus lower than normal humidity.

I thought we'd been over and over and over this 4-ton issue a number of times in various threads and the only reason I was considering a 3-ton iQ Drive was because of it's ability to perform at 118% of nominal capacity.

The only "official" Manual J load calc done by the Broan dealer confirmed that 4-ton was the right size for any dual stage system other than the iQ Drive.

[Florida Joy]

17 SEER is not my goal... I think it was my answer to your question, which went something like: "At what SEER do the really big utility rebates kick-in?"



I'm not so sure I'd be happy with a new unit keeping me "just as cool". My 3.5 ton is "keeping up" because of two overlapping sets of circumstances.

First, I've lowered my expectations regarding comfort in favor of being able to pay my electric bill when it comes due every month, i.e., I turned up the t-stat to 77 and it pretty much maintains the temperature at 77-78 degrees. I sit and/or sleep under ceiling fans most days because my comfort level is 74-75 degrees during the day... I prefer around 70 at night, but can't afford the electric bill.

Second, it's been a relatively mild, dry summer... ODDB has been <92 degrees most days with lower than normal rainfall all year, thus lower than normal humidity.

I thought we'd been over and over and over this 4-ton issue a number of times in various threads and the only reason I was considering a 3-ton iQ Drive was because of it's ability to perform at 118% of nominal capacity.

The only "official" Manual J load calc done by the Broan dealer confirmed that 4-ton was the right size for any dual stage system other than the iQ Drive.

Oh... I almost forgot. There's a third circumstance that allows my 3.5 ton to "keep up". I've been keeping the vertical blinds closed all day long to help with coolng, which makes me feel very depressed and unhappy. I bought the house for the view and the ability to let the outside in, so I'd prefer to enjoy an unobstructed view throughout the day and at the same time be able to maintain my desired 75 degrees of "cool and comfortable".

[catmanacman]

If i was going with the iq drive and want it cold i would go with the 4 ton as they ramp down to about 40 % of capacity ,ask your son to find you a differnt contractor he should know the good ones

[Florida Joy]

If i was going with the iq drive and want it cold i would go with the 4 ton as they ramp down to about 40 % of capacity ,ask your son to find you a differnt contractor he should know the good ones

Thanks. I'll aisk my son. But he's in a different county and may or may not know anyone in my service area.

[54regcab]

So your current equipment will maintain 75, but you choose to set it higher in order to save on the electric bill? Going back to the whole SEER/EER discussion, realize the 17+ SEER equipment isn't going to do much better than 14SEER when it's 95 outside. I can't see how going 20+ SEER will save over a 17SEER, since most manufacturers of high SEER equipment hide their EER ratings..

Does your utility offer time of use or variable peak rates? With time of use rates you give up some comfort during peak hours on weekdays in order to be more comfortable on nights/weekends. Our utility smarthours program has peak hours 2-7pm weekdays where electricity is about double the normal price. The other 19 hours per day and all weekend are 1/2 the normal price. We keep our house 75 by day, 80 from 2-7 weekdays, and 72 at night. Reduces our power bill by about 1/4th compared to normal rates, summer electric bill runs about $120 for our 1587sqft house for 4 people. If I could get the kids to keep the door shut that would save me another $20/month. I've not seen where you have mentioned other household members or what hours you work, but people who work 9-5 M-F and don't get home until 5:30pm or so come out really well on the program since they would only be home for 1.5hrs of the peak power. Utilities sometimes don't advertise time of use rates, but they are in the rate schedule on the utility website. It's worth a look, peak times and rates vary WIDELY for each utility.

[Florida Joy]

So your current equipment will maintain 75, but you choose to set it higher in order to save on the electric bill?

There you go, putting words in my mouth. That's not it. If I try to get 75 from my Rheem (or the 72 that I tried when I first moved in), the thing will run without shutting off from 7 AM until midnight or later and STILL allow the temp to go up to 77/78 most of the day. At least by raising the t-stat to 77 it starts later in the morning and shuts off earlier in the evening. My bill has decreased a small amount over the past 3 summers as I gradually raised the t-stat each year. At the current settings I'm maxed out as to what I can get by with as to comfort. Lower bills, better comfort, lower investment, longer life.... that's what my goals are.

Going back to the whole SEER/EER discussion, realize the 17+ SEER equipment isn't going to do much better than 14SEER when it's 95 outside. I can't see how going 20+ SEER will save over a 17SEER, since most manufacturers of high SEER equipment hide their EER ratings.

I do appreciate your input on EER versus SEER and I will make that more of a decision factor now that I'm aware of the conditions under which SEER is tested. It's an advertising gimmick, apparently, but it does play in investment cost due to the utility rebates.

I've not seen where you have mentioned other household members or what hours you work, but people who work 9-5 M-F and don't get home until 5:30pm or so come out really well on the program since they would only be home for 1.5hrs of the peak power.

Good for them, working 9-5, M-F. I did that for too many years to count. Now I work at home.

Utilities sometimes don't advertise time of use rates, but they are in the rate schedule on the utility website. It's worth a look, peak times and rates vary WIDELY for each utility.

Yes, FPL advertises peak and off-peak rates and they have a "smartpower" (or whatever) program where THEY turn your equipment off at peak times for a small reduction in your monthly bill. I used to do that when I worked M-F, 7:30 - 4:30.

[54regcab]

They tried load control switches in Oklahoma where the utility had control of the condenser. Didn't go over to well with consumers. They have switched to a new program where it's 100% price based, no mandatory control. The FPL peak/off peak may still make sense for you, you just have to run the numbers.

Dropping the temperature down at night to be comfortable doesn't hurt your bill as much as you might think. The A/C runs more efficiently since outdoor temps are lower, capacity goes up while power use goes down. Ductwork losses are less since the attic is relatively cool. If your house has a lot of thermal mass it might even be able to hold some of the cool until the peak of the day. If FPL allows you to monitor use hourly use online you could verify how it affects your power bill.

[54regcab]

Just pulled FPL's rate schedule.
What a mess, I can't figure out what they charge per KWH or even when the peak hours are !!

[dan sw fl]

Just pulled FPL's rate schedule.
What a mess, I can't figure out what they charge per KWH or even when the peak hours are !!

Noon- 9 PM
NO CAN DO ! !!
FOR NEARLY EVERY1.!.!!

http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/2012RateSummary.pdf

[Florida Joy]

They tried load control switches in Oklahoma where the utility had control of the condenser. Didn't go over to well with consumers. They have switched to a new program where it's 100% price based, no mandatory control. The FPL peak/off peak may still make sense for you, you just have to run the numbers.

.

Thanks dan sw fl for jogging my memory. Now that I recall, it was in a "past life" at another location that I opted for the FPL "On Call" discount... I was working as a retail auto parts store manager at that time, most days from noon to 9PM. So I didn't care if they controlled my A/C and water heater during those hours!

[Florida Joy]

Keep in mind the "21 SEER" rating is at 82 degree outside and 80 degree inside temperatures. Yes a TWO degree difference between outside and inside temperatures. The EER rating is VERY different at a more typical 95 outside/80 inside 15 degree difference. If it's 95F outside and the system is running continuously on high speed (which it should be in most areas) the EER number is closer to what you are going to see in the real world. I didn't see EER published for either unit you are comparing but very few air to air units are capable of EER of over 14. A 14-15 SEER unit gets and EER of about 13. Not much real world improvement for the high end units when the temps start climbing. 16+ SEER units get their higher rating by "downsizing" during part load conditions to reduce cycling losses. Cycling looses can also be reduced by selecting smaller equipment if you're OK with house not meeting setpoint when temperature are over 95 outside. You can move heat generating activities to off peak times to help keep cool.

For the money you are talking about with the high end systems you may want to look at geothermal. EER on Geo units can exceed 20, a substantial improvement over air cooled units.

As you all know, I chose the 3 ton, 20,5 SEER, 14.5 EER Carrier Greenspeed, which was installed on 11/08/2012. But I've had your comment about SEER being based on testing at 80*F indoor and 82*F outdoor rolling around in my head, so I decided to check the 25VNA product data for the equipment I chose. Here's what I found regarding published ratings:

Cooling Standard: 80_F (27_C) db 67_F (19_C) wb indoor entering air temperature and 95_F (35_C) db air entering outdoor unit.

25VNA Infinity Variable Speed Heat Pump with Greenspeed Product Data (25VNA-03PD).pdf