Compare Heat Pumps - Broan FT4BI iQ Drive vs.Trane XL20i

[cumminundun13]

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[Florida Joy]

JP just sent a message to you.

I really like working with RE Michel, they take good care of me and my customers.

Brett, I didn't see any message from JP. I did send you an email and just accepted your "friend request". I will be visiting my son and his family over the Labor Day holiday and will discuss the Broan line and his RE Michel discount. Depending on how that goes, I may contact you in a week or two. I'm busy with Medicare medical appointments the first couple weeks of September.

[54regcab]

In layman's terms, isn't geothermal really "water-to-air" cooling from buried piping filled with water? Not an option in my Florida neighborhood. Besides being impractical for my house built on a lakefront slab at just a little above sea level, water-to-air is not allowed by my HOA.

With all the utility company rebates and instant cash from the mfg., the price difference between the "Cadillac" and the "Kia" models in the Trane lineup is just a little over three figures, so I'm not sure the benefit of going with a lower SEER at this time.

BTW, thanks for the link! Very informative!

If you are on the water geo makes even more sense if code allows it. Geo can use the water from a lake to cool the condenser w/o having to drill/dig expensive loops. Your utility may even offer big rebates for geo systems because the EER so much more than any air cooled condenser can do. 18+ EER's are common (some go into the 30's) with geo, air cooled units top out at about 14 EER.

How is the rebate structured with your utility company? At what SEER level do the big rebates come in? Once you get over 16 SEER definitely get the extended warranty. The parts for these units are considerably more expensive than standard units.

[Florida Joy]

If you are on the water geo makes even more sense if code allows it. Geo can use the water from a lake to cool the condenser w/o having to drill/dig expensive loops. Your utility may even offer big rebates for geo systems because the EER so much more than any air cooled condenser can do. 18+ EER's are common (some go into the 30's) with geo, air cooled units top out at about 14 EER.

How is the rebate structured with your utility company? At what SEER level do the big rebates come in? Once you get over 16 SEER definitely get the extended warranty. The parts for these units are considerably more expensive than standard units.

Using lake water to cool my home might be a "good idea", but I'm in a deed-restricted community that does not allow it!

Four figure rebates require 17 SEER or above.

[54regcab]

Have you looked at the RUUD UPRL- JEC? 17 SEER with some air handlers. See link for matching air handler ratings. I really like the RUUD publishes their performance data on their public website.

Consumer Sell Sheet

[Florida Joy]

Have you looked at the RUUD UPRL- JEC? 17 SEER with some air handlers. See link for matching air handler ratings. I really like the RUUD publishes their performance data on their public website.

Consumer Sell Sheet

Not really. I looked at Rheem/Ruud online and asked a couple of local AC contractors to quote me as an option to the line they were "pushing". Was particularly interested in the JEC series, but all they wanted to quote me was the PJL 15 SEER value series (the "cube"). 3.5 ton "cube" was essentially the same price from one dealer as was the 4-ton "cube" quoted by another. With the prices they quoted, it made more sense to go with other dealers who offered the XL20i for not that much more, considering factory rebates and the larger utility rebate.

But I've since talked to an ex-Trane dealer who explained why he dropped Trane about 6 weeks ago.... customer dissatisfaction with the Hyperion air handler and evaporator coil... leaks, warping, excessive noise, etc. Now would be a good time to re-consider Rheem/Ruud and look for a local dealer. Thanks!

[Florida Joy]

Have you looked at the RUUD UPRL- JEC? 17 SEER with some air handlers. See link for matching air handler ratings. I really like the RUUD publishes their performance data on their public website.

Consumer Sell Sheet

The 17 SEER only applies to one match-up in a 2-ton. My 4-ton would likely be 14 or 15 SEER, either of which carries the lowest rebate from FPL ($475).

[jpsmith1cm]

cumminundun13

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[54regcab]

The 17 SEER only applies to one match-up in a 2-ton. My 4-ton would likely be 14 or 15 SEER, either of which carries the lowest rebate from FPL ($475).

Have you pulled the data from the other manufacturers to make sure there is a 17 SEER matchup @ 4 tons? Getting the 17 SEER rebate from the utility helps a lot with the cost, make sure you are actually getting the 17 SEER on your size unit. Higher ton units have less coil area compared to compressor capacity, this hurts the number of SEER rating matchups.

Have you considered the York or Carrier?

[Florida Joy]

Have you pulled the data from the other manufacturers to make sure there is a 17 SEER matchup @ 4 tons? Getting the 17 SEER rebate from the utility helps a lot with the cost, make sure you are actually getting the 17 SEER on your size unit. Higher ton units have less coil area compared to compressor capacity, this hurts the number of SEER rating matchups.

Have you considered the York or Carrier?

Yes, I double check the match-up and the SEER on all quotes and verify the FPL rebate.

York may be popular "up north", but there are no dealers in Florida that I could find. The one Carrier quote I have is from an outfit so big that their overhead on real estate and trucks alone put their proposal on a 16 SEER single stage Comfort series so out of my budget it wasn't funny. LOL

Waiting on another Carrier quote from a reputable one-man shop up the road a piece (he has 2 techs who help), so I haven't totally written off Carrier as a possibility.

[54regcab]

Is your 17 SEER goal mostly about getting the rebate or actual energy savings? Dropping from a 4ton down to a 3ton would cut your utility bill and remove more humidity. In 17 SEER+ units the lower tonnage would get a better matchup on SEER. This would be in addition to the blower only having to move 1200CFM instead of 1600CFM. The blower power used is the CUBE of the increase of CFM. I don't have the formula handy but it takes about twice the horsepower to move 1600CFM vs 1200CFM through the same ductwork.

Your current 3.5 ton system that you stated is barely hanging on keeps up, I'm sure a properly designed/setup 3 ton could keep you just as cool.

[jtrammel]

Is your 17 SEER goal mostly about getting the rebate or actual energy savings? Dropping from a 4ton down to a 3ton would cut your utility bill and remove more humidity. In 17 SEER+ units the lower tonnage would get a better matchup on SEER. This would be in addition to the blower only having to move 1200CFM instead of 1600CFM. The blower power used is the CUBE of the increase of CFM. I don't have the formula handy but it takes about twice the horsepower to move 1600CFM vs 1200CFM through the same ductwork.

Your current 3.5 ton system that you stated is barely hanging on keeps up, I'm sure a properly designed/setup 3 ton could keep you just as cool.

X2

[catmanacman]

I am so disappointed. Got word from the Broan dealer who did all the testing, measuring, and load calculation at my home on Tuesday. Due to circumstances beyond his control related to prior commitments, he will not be able to commit to doing the work for me at this time. As a result, he has declined to provide a proposal (i.e. estimate $$$).

Boohoo. Now looking for another reputable Broan dealer in Brevard County, FL. Wish me luck!

He did not to work with you because of the discounted price ,and probably thought you would nit pick the install costing him more time and effort on a discounted install

[Florida Joy]

He did not to work with you because of the discounted price ,and probably thought you would nit pick the install costing him more time and effort on a discounted install

Yeah... so why did he offer to discount the price? I'd never have known about Broan being an RE Michel product or there being an employee (my son's) discount available if HE HADN'T OFFERED IT. Doesn't make sense to me. It's water over the bridge (or under the bridge if there's no tropical storm in your neighborhood), so let it be!

Besides, my son told me today that his employee discount isn't all that much!

[Florida Joy]

Is your 17 SEER goal mostly about getting the rebate or actual energy savings?

17 SEER is not my goal... I think it was my answer to your question, which went something like: "At what SEER do the really big utility rebates kick-in?"

Your current 3.5 ton system that you stated is barely hanging on keeps up, I'm sure a properly designed/setup 3 ton could keep you just as cool.

I'm not so sure I'd be happy with a new unit keeping me "just as cool". My 3.5 ton is "keeping up" because of two overlapping sets of circumstances.

First, I've lowered my expectations regarding comfort in favor of being able to pay my electric bill when it comes due every month, i.e., I turned up the t-stat to 77 and it pretty much maintains the temperature at 77-78 degrees. I sit and/or sleep under ceiling fans most days because my comfort level is 74-75 degrees during the day... I prefer around 70 at night, but can't afford the electric bill.

Second, it's been a relatively mild, dry summer... ODDB has been <92 degrees most days with lower than normal rainfall all year, thus lower than normal humidity.

I thought we'd been over and over and over this 4-ton issue a number of times in various threads and the only reason I was considering a 3-ton iQ Drive was because of it's ability to perform at 118% of nominal capacity.

The only "official" Manual J load calc done by the Broan dealer confirmed that 4-ton was the right size for any dual stage system other than the iQ Drive.

[Florida Joy]

17 SEER is not my goal... I think it was my answer to your question, which went something like: "At what SEER do the really big utility rebates kick-in?"



I'm not so sure I'd be happy with a new unit keeping me "just as cool". My 3.5 ton is "keeping up" because of two overlapping sets of circumstances.

First, I've lowered my expectations regarding comfort in favor of being able to pay my electric bill when it comes due every month, i.e., I turned up the t-stat to 77 and it pretty much maintains the temperature at 77-78 degrees. I sit and/or sleep under ceiling fans most days because my comfort level is 74-75 degrees during the day... I prefer around 70 at night, but can't afford the electric bill.

Second, it's been a relatively mild, dry summer... ODDB has been <92 degrees most days with lower than normal rainfall all year, thus lower than normal humidity.

I thought we'd been over and over and over this 4-ton issue a number of times in various threads and the only reason I was considering a 3-ton iQ Drive was because of it's ability to perform at 118% of nominal capacity.

The only "official" Manual J load calc done by the Broan dealer confirmed that 4-ton was the right size for any dual stage system other than the iQ Drive.

Oh... I almost forgot. There's a third circumstance that allows my 3.5 ton to "keep up". I've been keeping the vertical blinds closed all day long to help with coolng, which makes me feel very depressed and unhappy. I bought the house for the view and the ability to let the outside in, so I'd prefer to enjoy an unobstructed view throughout the day and at the same time be able to maintain my desired 75 degrees of "cool and comfortable".

[catmanacman]

If i was going with the iq drive and want it cold i would go with the 4 ton as they ramp down to about 40 % of capacity ,ask your son to find you a differnt contractor he should know the good ones

[Florida Joy]

If i was going with the iq drive and want it cold i would go with the 4 ton as they ramp down to about 40 % of capacity ,ask your son to find you a differnt contractor he should know the good ones

Thanks. I'll aisk my son. But he's in a different county and may or may not know anyone in my service area.

[54regcab]

So your current equipment will maintain 75, but you choose to set it higher in order to save on the electric bill? Going back to the whole SEER/EER discussion, realize the 17+ SEER equipment isn't going to do much better than 14SEER when it's 95 outside. I can't see how going 20+ SEER will save over a 17SEER, since most manufacturers of high SEER equipment hide their EER ratings..

Does your utility offer time of use or variable peak rates? With time of use rates you give up some comfort during peak hours on weekdays in order to be more comfortable on nights/weekends. Our utility smarthours program has peak hours 2-7pm weekdays where electricity is about double the normal price. The other 19 hours per day and all weekend are 1/2 the normal price. We keep our house 75 by day, 80 from 2-7 weekdays, and 72 at night. Reduces our power bill by about 1/4th compared to normal rates, summer electric bill runs about $120 for our 1587sqft house for 4 people. If I could get the kids to keep the door shut that would save me another $20/month. I've not seen where you have mentioned other household members or what hours you work, but people who work 9-5 M-F and don't get home until 5:30pm or so come out really well on the program since they would only be home for 1.5hrs of the peak power. Utilities sometimes don't advertise time of use rates, but they are in the rate schedule on the utility website. It's worth a look, peak times and rates vary WIDELY for each utility.

[Florida Joy]

So your current equipment will maintain 75, but you choose to set it higher in order to save on the electric bill?

There you go, putting words in my mouth. That's not it. If I try to get 75 from my Rheem (or the 72 that I tried when I first moved in), the thing will run without shutting off from 7 AM until midnight or later and STILL allow the temp to go up to 77/78 most of the day. At least by raising the t-stat to 77 it starts later in the morning and shuts off earlier in the evening. My bill has decreased a small amount over the past 3 summers as I gradually raised the t-stat each year. At the current settings I'm maxed out as to what I can get by with as to comfort. Lower bills, better comfort, lower investment, longer life.... that's what my goals are.

Going back to the whole SEER/EER discussion, realize the 17+ SEER equipment isn't going to do much better than 14SEER when it's 95 outside. I can't see how going 20+ SEER will save over a 17SEER, since most manufacturers of high SEER equipment hide their EER ratings.

I do appreciate your input on EER versus SEER and I will make that more of a decision factor now that I'm aware of the conditions under which SEER is tested. It's an advertising gimmick, apparently, but it does play in investment cost due to the utility rebates.

I've not seen where you have mentioned other household members or what hours you work, but people who work 9-5 M-F and don't get home until 5:30pm or so come out really well on the program since they would only be home for 1.5hrs of the peak power.

Good for them, working 9-5, M-F. I did that for too many years to count. Now I work at home.

Utilities sometimes don't advertise time of use rates, but they are in the rate schedule on the utility website. It's worth a look, peak times and rates vary WIDELY for each utility.

Yes, FPL advertises peak and off-peak rates and they have a "smartpower" (or whatever) program where THEY turn your equipment off at peak times for a small reduction in your monthly bill. I used to do that when I worked M-F, 7:30 - 4:30.