Professional Member
Anyone remember the R12 to 134 conversion days? Recomendation was less than 2% of original mineral oil remaining and requiring mutiple oil changes to get it there. After a few years that number started to climb and the automotive guys stoped removing the old oil. They just added a few OZ of poly oil to the system and let it rip.
I think I would rather have a used lineset from a clean system than one that has been flushed with the new flushes that are avaiabe today. Can I have my R-11 back, that stuff worked great as a flush.
Banned
lol nothing like trying to braze a lineset that has had r22 running thru it for decades without a flush by the way, I love how the FLAMES just like to try and tickle my nose from my torches!!!
Anyone that has any experience in HVAC know's what I am talking about...
Professional Member*
You need to revisit refrigerant recovery laws if your having those problems. LOL
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Banned
ah the lab default.. Nah I am speaking for us men in the field...
Professional Member*
LOL You have no idea!
Make your expertise uniquely valuable.
Make your influence uniquely far-reaching.
Banned
Well seems I met the 1st troll here on hvac-talk... Flushing the lineset has turned into a pissing match over who is more over the top... Good luck on preaching your beleif's on what is ok and right in the field.. Not to flush or to flush whatever, If your best is just a nitro purge so be it, if it is a r11 flush with a nitro purge so be it... If it is nothing then so be it.. As far as this gorilla bull crap your trying to smear all over this guys question so be it.. You do not sound professional you sound like someone trying to say not cleaning linesets is ok, when its not and is not doing your best for your customer client etc.. If it was my house i would flush it, just as I would if I had control over it for my customers..
Go to the labs, the experiments in your controlled rooms and make excuses for not doing the best for your customers to relieve your guilt, I don't care, and I am done trying to reason with ignorance.....
I am just glad people like you have proven to me I am doing the best for my clients and customers thank you so much...
for proving to me I am one of the best...
Professional Member*
X2 jimj
You are in the minority of "us in the field" danae
You seem to be the one being the most defensively. Jimj has been around and seen most of it all and is well respected among
You will do well to listen and let your mind be opened to what others say.
Professional Member*
If you can support ANY of your arguments with any kind of written information by any manufactures ( other than the people that sell flush) I would love to see it. I unlike you have an open mind.Originally Posted by Danae12
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Professional Member*/ARP Committee
Based on that last post, if I was judging only on professionalism...
We flush, but not with rx11. We use a nitro/cleaning mixture, similar (but greater volumes) to a acid cleanup injector.
Seems like it works so far. Haven't had any real compressor issues. The nitro really sprays that stuff out of there. I doubt anything remains when correctly done.
But, thats in the rarity that we can't replace a lineset.
In reality though, I'd rather hit them with nitro alone.
As mentioned earlier, there's only 2 things that belong in a system. Refrigerant and oil.
keep in mind, if the crap hits the fan with flushing linesets (5 years down the road it eats up windings), I doubt your manufacturer will stand behind those warranty claims. Especially if they've said not to use flushing agents.
"Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."
"Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."
"Just get it done son."
Dad adjusted
Professional Member*
I say do what you feel comfortable with .although you can go wrong with replacing the line set
Professional Member
"I've been doing it this way for a long time..."
doesn't mean you've been doing it THE ONLY RIGHT WAY though.Experience is of value but not a gospel.
Supposedly glass bottles are better for water bottle because it doesn't leach anything. You could chose to use glass water bottle for on the field and on the beach. It's safe as long as its not broken. Here the unquestionable risk exceeds questionable benefits, so unless you're a veggie organic hippie freak the prudent choice is plastic bottle.
For a one man show working on flat rate you have a lot of discretion in what you do.
If you're a business owner where the expense of techs affect your bottom line, procedures that take considerable payable tech time with questionable merit (return on investment) shouldn't be done just because its always been done and works good based on anecdotal evidence.
If it adds an hour to each install but merits are moot, that's one hour of payroll expense.
Professional Member*
I don't use any chemical to flush the system
Just plain nitro.
Flush is bad news for your system
I have to agree with jimj
The only reason they wanted only a small amount mineral oil
Was the parrafen wax
That was dissolve on older semi hermetic compressor.
The wax is not messible with poly oil
So the minute it hit a colder spot like txv
It will separate and plug it up.
They stop using this wax in mid 80s.
Even if you don't purge with nitro it should be okay
As long as its not a burn out.
You are doing more harm if u use rx11
And can't get all out
Professional Member*
Parrafen wax is wax that was used for motor winding insulation
It get dissolve by meniral oil
Professional Member
Thanks Jim. Good to see some actual literature on the subject. The company I work for tells us to flush with only nitro (and vacuum of course) so this makes me feel much better about it. How do you get those bulletins?
Professional Member*
I don't see the reason for any argument here. The fact is most of us are doing what we have been taught , told, researched or experienced what works the best. I don't know about the rest here but I've only been installing 410a systems for about 4 years. That's hardly enough time to get any long term data on the best line cleaning procedures. I've done it both ways but stopped using the flush in the early goings. I haven't had any problems yet that I know of so I'll stick with the plain nitro purge until I find any definitive evidence that it is not sufficient. It looks like even the manufacturers don't all agree what is the best way to clean an old line set. The majority of them seem to think R22 is the best to clean the lines with but with the price of R22 now it doesn't seem very practical. In another 5 or 10 years we'll have a lot more data to compare but for now I say do whatever you're comfortable with as long as you don't leave anything in the lines that wasn't there before.
Gary
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http://www.oceanhvac.com
The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.
When you appreciate what you have, you have a lot more.
Professional Member
Got about 15 systems right now that every time I hook up to service I can smell straight flush.
Professional Member
It shouldn't be really relevant, at least its not to the point where de minimis loss makes it any costlier than anything else. Closed loop liquid refrigerant flush is a feature found on many automotive A/C service equipment.
Open loop flushing using refrigerant is illegal anyways.
As far as the instructions given by companies, the tech, you, are the most expensive expense. Every second you're there, the company is expending on your payroll.
What you'd do as a one man job is different from. If you do things your own way and it takes you an hour more you're not actually losing money unless there's a direct opportunity cost (i.e. had to turn another job down) but if he's paid by the company by the hour, its an hour of labor that they have to pay you.
Professional Member*
When the coils get dirty and/or cond fan quits - that is when the discharge temps are goona start causing flush components to break down and form acids.
Professional Member*
Here's a twister.
Whether you illegally flush with R-22 & blow it to the atmosphere or do it legally closed loop you're still going to waste it all unless you illegally reuse what you legally used.
Gary
-----------
http://www.oceanhvac.com
The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.
When you appreciate what you have, you have a lot more.
Professional Member
It is illegal to charge a system with recovered refrigerant unless the refrigerant originated from the same owner, but there is no specific language saying you can not HCFC-22 formerly used for refrigerant for closed loop cleaning.
In closed loop system, the solvent (HCFC-22 in this case) is recycled and the only loss is through connecting/disconnecting.
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