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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Miami
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    258
    I have to admit to not being sure what I should do. Too bad work isn't interested in me adding a CPR and check valve.

    I think I'll put it back in service, order a TXV, and install it later on.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Guayaquil EC
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    10,373
    Quote Originally Posted by trippintl0 View Post
    Ice,

    I don't understand your thinking on this one. And I want to learn, that's why I'm questioning you, so please don't take any offense!

    I relate this to my experience with self-contained prep tables that have a base refrigerator and a wrapped cold rail on top. When the base is calling, you will have a SST of 15-20*f, and the top cold rail will not frost up very well, it try to frost but not much. But once the base cycles off, the SST drops to around 0*f and the top rail starts frosting really good.

    I realize a freezer is different, but still it seems that when that med temp TXV is being fed refrigerant, that cooler has a good load and it is going to raise the suction pressure because of all the heat it's absorbing (if TXV is feeding properly). In my mind, I think it should work like this: while cooler is calling, it will run higher suction pressures and freezer will suffer, but once the cooler cycles off, the freezer will work good.

    When I look at BTU sizing charts, the higher the SST you want, the more BTU's required. This leads me to believe that the cooler is the greater load, and the freezer is the smaller load. Is my thinking on this flawed?

    Why will it not work like I think it will in my mind? Please explain to me because you have my mind all twisted now!

    I'd try a new TXV for the cooler, too, just FYI!
    No offense taken as I think I understand your confusion.

    Going back to my earlier post where I mentioned the system balance, I think it needs an example to explain just what I was trying to explain.

    First, imagine a two walk-in coolers applied to a single condensing unit. Both are the same size (let's say 10 x 10 x 10), both are designed to hold 35F and both have a design load of 10,000 Btuh. Both have evaporators selected for a 10F TD and so, the condensing unit is selected for 20,000 Btuh at a 25F SST. For this example, say this works out to a 2 HP R404A MT unit.

    When both coolers are calling, the compressor will run at its design evap temp of 25F. If one cooler cycles off, the system must re-balance to the new load condition...so what would we expect see?

    First we know the specific capacity of the evaporator is 1000 Btuh/F TD (10,000 Btuh / 10F TD) and from the condensing unit performance data sheet we find the following capacities at various SST's:

    25F 20,000 Btuh
    20F 17,500 Btuh
    15F 15,000 Btuh
    10F 12,500 Btuh

    If we plot this as a graph or do some basic interpolation, we find that at 17.5 the capacity of the evap and the unit match at 16,250 Btuh...so I would expect to see the system running at a 17.5F saturated suction temp with one cooler calling.

    This is essentially what's happening with your prep table with the cold rail.

    With a cooler/freezer dual temp application, we'd do the same thing, except we would have to select the compressor capacity at a much lower design evap temperature. If the freezer is designed for 0F with a 10F TD for the evap the SST would need to be -10F and as is often the case, the design Btuh load of the freezer is about the same as the cooler. (See p.43 of the Heatcraft Engineering Manual).

    So now we would need a much larger condensing unit, like a 5 HP LT R404A to do 20,000 Btuh at -10F SST with both evaps calling. With only the freezer evap calling, the SST would be even lower, but with only the cooler calling (and no EPR), what would we expect to see?

    Like we did before, with the condensing unit capacity data:

    10F 28,000 Btuh
    0F 24,000 Btuh
    -10F 20,000 Btuh
    -20F 15,000 Btuh
    -30F 9000 Btuh

    Theoretically, the cooler evap and the unit would balance at around +8F SST at about 27,000 Btuh capacity with a 27F TD.

    Now...if you were to install an EPR on the cooler evap to hold it at a normal 10F TD, its capacity would then be limited to its specific design capacity of 10,000 Btuh...and that would be the new load on the compressor. How would the system balance then?

    Since the TD and thus the load is now fixed by the EPR, the evap capacity and the load on the compressor remains constant at 10,000 Btuh, we simply need to determine where the unit capacity equals 10,000 Btuh...which would be just above -30F SST.

    So you now can see that it's all about system balance. Clear as mud?
    Last edited by Educational Committee; 08-24-2012 at 03:23 PM. Reason: Corrected second capacity table

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Guayaquil EC
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    10,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ57 View Post
    I have to admit to not being sure what I should do. Too bad work isn't interested in me adding a CPR and check valve.

    I think I'll put it back in service, order a TXV, and install it later on.
    A CPR valve would only be needed to prevent overloading the compressor with high suction pressure, but I see you having just the opposite problem. An EPR valve on the cooler evap would allow the TXV to work properly by maintaining a medium temp evap presure, but as I explained above, the compressor suction would then drop even more than it does now...so I'd just leave it be.

    As I said before, I think it's doing what it always did and you simply never noticed it until you had to fix that leak.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    258
    Yes, I did mean an EPR valve. BTW, thanks for the education above. I don't normally work on stuff quite like this.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    DFW, TX
    Posts
    673
    Thanks Ice for the explanation....

    I guess the only thing I'm still not sure about is this:

    I understand the low SST temp. What I don't understand is the high superheat. Now, if the condensing unit is grossly oversized, that would cause the low SST, but can it also explain the high superheat?

    You know what, I JUST NOW remembered a store we have with 2 little remote Glastender bar coolers, on like a 1 or 1.5HP condensing unit. No matter what, the TXV's always freeze up, super low suction pressure, and suction line coming back to condensing unit is not even cold. Yet the boxes can get below 40*f. I guess the TXV is incapable of opening up any more to flow enough refrigerant as fast as the compressor's suction is pulling it out. Does that sound about right?

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Guayaquil EC
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    10,373
    Quote Originally Posted by trippintl0 View Post
    Thanks Ice for the explanation....

    I guess the only thing I'm still not sure about is this:

    I understand the low SST temp. What I don't understand is the high superheat. Now, if the condensing unit is grossly oversized, that would cause the low SST, but can it also explain the high superheat?

    You know what, I JUST NOW remembered a store we have with 2 little remote Glastender bar coolers, on like a 1 or 1.5HP condensing unit. No matter what, the TXV's always freeze up, super low suction pressure, and suction line coming back to condensing unit is not even cold. Yet the boxes can get below 40*f. I guess the TXV is incapable of opening up any more to flow enough refrigerant as fast as the compressor's suction is pulling it out. Does that sound about right?
    That's a good assumption to make...and one which I left out of my explanation just to avoid over-complicating things.

    The TXV does have its flow limitations with increasing pressure drop across it, and as such it will reach a point to where it acts more like a fixed orifice than a TXV. So with this in mind, my example of an evaporator doing 10,000 Btuh at one condition and over 20,000 Btuh at another would be highly unlikely simply because the valve can't pass that much refrigerant. The result would be an even lower suction pressure and yes...much higher superheat.

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