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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    111
    yes, HVAC pro and the s2 box is what I use. I bit of a learning curve but a nice system once it sinks in. RSD Total control on the West Coast offers classes, 3-4 day cram session. You could look around out your way for Metasys and HVACpro training if you don't have a background in controls.... When you are looking to upgrade the system I would install a Tridium Niagara Jace with an N2 driver, in the Johnson world this would be an FX60 or 70. This will let you pull all the points into the new Tridium box and have an up to date user interface without changing out all the field controls (VMA's and UNT's) as the Metasys software is a bit "clunky" by today's standards. Message me privately if you need more information.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    769
    Quote Originally Posted by rikenz View Post
    yes, HVAC pro and the s2 box is what I use. I bit of a learning curve but a nice system once it sinks in. RSD Total control on the West Coast offers classes, 3-4 day cram session. You could look around out your way for Metasys and HVACpro training if you don't have a background in controls.... When you are looking to upgrade the system I would install a Tridium Niagara Jace with an N2 driver, in the Johnson world this would be an FX60 or 70. This will let you pull all the points into the new Tridium box and have an up to date user interface without changing out all the field controls (VMA's and UNT's) as the Metasys software is a bit "clunky" by today's standards. Message me privately if you need more information.
    I have more of a service controls background. I have worked on a lot of different systems out there. I have only done some mild programming. I usually catch on pretty quick once I get going though. So I think some sort of training would be good. I have thought about upgrading this system to a Tridium system. My company hasn't got into Tridium yet, but I have been on them for a few years now letting them know how big of a player Tridium is in the controls market. They are strongly considering sending a few of there programmers, and myself to AX training. I agree this would definitely be the best solution to the problem. On this job there is some pretty custom logic that the JCI system doesn't contain that I would have to put into the Tridium. Do they have a lot of different programming blocks for most applications?
    J. King

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by apprentice3 View Post
    I have more of a service controls background. I have worked on a lot of different systems out there. I have only done some mild programming. I usually catch on pretty quick once I get going though. So I think some sort of training would be good. I have thought about upgrading this system to a Tridium system. My company hasn't got into Tridium yet, but I have been on them for a few years now letting them know how big of a player Tridium is in the controls market. They are strongly considering sending a few of there programmers, and myself to AX training. I agree this would definitely be the best solution to the problem. On this job there is some pretty custom logic that the JCI system doesn't contain that I would have to put into the Tridium. Do they have a lot of different programming blocks for most applications?
    Consider using our S4 Open: BACnet-N2 Router or S4 Open: OPC-N2 Router. These products allow you to salvage all of the N2 field devices and use Tridium, or any other head end that meets your requirements. You can also co-exist with the legacy JCI Metasys head end system for a transition period or as part of your long term solution. See our web site at http://www.thes4group.com or contact me for more details. My contact information is in my profile.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Several Miles from Sane
    Posts
    1,457
    OP,
    This assumes you will find "Legacy N2" devices; AHU's, VMA's, VAV's, UNT and DX-9100's at the job.

    The S4 gizmo is trick, the S2 Converter is pretty slick but I already had the B&B 485SD9TB that connect to a 9pin serial port otherwise I would have bought the S2 box. If you do not have a serial port get the B&B converter and a Digi Edgeport/1 to adapt it to a USB port. Least brain damage in the long run.

    The software is MW-MTOOL-0 for a new copy (with the CBT) or for about 1/2 the price you should order the MW-MTOOL-6 (no CBT). The AS-CVTPRO300-1 is very pricey. I recommend one of the 2 converters (S2 or the B&B Electroincs) mentioned above. Your best bet will be to locate your local independant Johnson Controls ABCS dealer to order/purchase the M-Tools Software.

    You mentioned "Custom Programming", if it's NOT an NAE you will have to decifer the N30 logic or, if its NCM/PMI you will have to get either the JCB source files or the GPL files. Hopefully off of the existing Workstation.

    As mentioned above the FX-60/70 is likely your best solution if you don't have a long term plan.

    Good Luck.
    If sense were so common everyone would have it !

    All opinions expressed are my own. Any advice provided is based on personal experience, generally accepted fact or publicly available information. As such, it is worth exactly what you paid for it, not a penny more not a penny less !!

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    769
    I called our JCI software provider today to get pricing on everything that is needed for this work, but the converter that they priced up for me is described as a TP/FT-10 USB to LON interface. I don't see that mentioned anywhere in this post. Will that work? If not what will it be used for?
    J. King

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    1,596
    Not if you have N2 devices, you have never told us exactly what devices you are connecting to.

    Kevin
    "Profit is not the legitimate purpose of business. The legitimate purpose of business is to provide a product or service that people need and do it so well that it's profitable."

    James Rouse

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    1,460
    It sounds like he hasn't even been to the building yet.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    769
    Quote Originally Posted by klrogers View Post
    Not if you have N2 devices, you have never told us exactly what devices you are connecting to.

    Kevin
    I will have that list tomorrow. I was tied up all day today on a job. I will let you know. Thanks alot.
    J. King

  9. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    378
    Once you determine what you need have the customer purchase the tools from JCI since they are the system owner (even if you fund it).

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    769
    I went out to the job site today and found that all of the vavs are on a n2 bus and have a VMA hardware type. The RTUs on this job reside on the LON network. They just use ccn to Lon cards for this. All of this is tied to a NAE55. So what software do I need to have to see the logic inside of the NAE55?

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by apprentice3 View Post
    So what software do I need to have to see the logic inside of the NAE55?
    Internet Explorer and Java.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    363
    Honestly if I were you, if it is working and you don't currently have any issues with the controls, I would just leave it alone until you have issues at this point.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    769
    Quote Originally Posted by noskilltech View Post
    Honestly if I were you, if it is working and you don't currently have any issues with the controls, I would just leave it alone until you have issues at this point.
    The thing is they are having issues. Apparently this NAE55 is expected to control the Carrier Z series RTUs through LON. I need to see if there is any logic for certain control sequences that need to be done on these units. Apparently the 3 105 ton Carrier units feed into a common duct. They are having tons of trip outs when the units go unoccupied, and when the lead lag program takes affect. All of the units are controled internally to the maintain duct static pressure. Currently they are all referecing there built in duct static pressure sensor. All three of the sensors are reading different causing the fan speeds to be all over the place. Sometimes one unit will kick on and its fan will only ramp up to like 20 hz, and the unit doesn't have enough airflow for the 1st stage of cooling. Typically on these set ups I have seen the control system sync the fan speeds between the three units in the common ducted system. I need to get into this NAE55 for this reason. Is there a way that I can view the internal logic? I also want to see the logic that is writing the NVIs. Can this be done through internet explorer too? Or do you need some sort of software to see this part? I was on the system through internet explorer today, and I couldn't see anyway to access the internal programming.

    Thanks!
    J. King

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