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  1. #1

    Blue Collar Bar. Can't get it comfortable. Please help!

    Existing “5 ton” unit.
    Bar is 70’ x 20’ rectangle. Ceilings 10’.
    There are 6 vents where the air comes out. They are about 15” square. They are spaced one at each end centered and 4 in the middle squared. Like a 1-2-2-1 set up along the rectangle.
    The big vent where the air goes in is 20” x 25” and just about center of bar.
    The outside temp is usually 95 – 105 F July – Sept.
    One of the techs showed me the readings of air temp into the bar at 55/56 while the air in the return was 81/82. The thermostat in the bar is way to hot at 85+
    The temp in the bar has cut business by 50 during these hot summer days. My desperation and urgency got me 4 HVAC Co’s to come take a look. The suggestions were:

    Company 1: Replace with a 10 ton system ($)
    Company 2: Put in a 4 ton sytem with “exposed” duct running length of bar and use existing as backup ($)
    Company 3: Increase size of existing air vents ($)
    Company 4: Use existing 5 ton and run “exposed” duct length of bar ($)

    The cost is not the issue… I just want the right solution, and right now I’m confused as heck and can’t do anything.

    Please help. Hard working peoples comfort is on the line.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by beenthere; 08-19-2012 at 06:55 AM. Reason: prices

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,113
    Is that 20X25 a return filter grille. if so its way too small for 5 tons. And your return to supply temp difference indicates a low air flow.

    How many people is the occupancy permit for?
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
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    34,187
    Low airflow came to my worn out mind immediately as well. Certainly the least costly to address. But I doubt that will do enough good to keep the place comfy. Is there cooking equipment in there too? Exhaust fans? After correcting the ductwork, I'd think a 2nd system would be the best bet. I did this in a little pizza joint, tied to 1 stat. Larger backup takes over under heavy load when the base unit can't keep up. If you went to 1 big 10 ton system, be sure it is dual compressor wired to a 2 stage thermostat to run on low in light loads. Otherwise you could short cycle and be humid.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,113
    Quote Originally Posted by BaldLoonie View Post
    Low airflow came to my worn out mind immediately as well. Certainly the least costly to address. But I doubt that will do enough good to keep the place comfy. Is there cooking equipment in there too? Exhaust fans? After correcting the ductwork, I'd think a 2nd system would be the best bet. I did this in a little pizza joint, tied to 1 stat. Larger backup takes over under heavy load when the base unit can't keep up. If you went to 1 big 10 ton system, be sure it is dual compressor wired to a 2 stage thermostat to run on low in light loads. Otherwise you could short cycle and be humid.
    And dual circuit. nothing worse then losing a compressor on a Friday night, and having no A/c. With a Dual circuit, you still have half your A/C.

    I find it generally works out close to 1 ton per 9 people in restaurant bar application.
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    25
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    Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 08-20-2012 at 07:14 AM. Reason: non aop member

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Western PA
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    Kenscom

    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
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    11,347
    First of all I agree with what Bald One and Beenthere are telling you.

    Secondly, did any of the techs who looked at your system offer any explanation why your existing equipment isn't working correctly, apart from trying to sell you stuff? Reason I ask is that bars are busy places, with lots of in and out traffic. That means lots of dust, which can not only make any filter in your system dirty quickly, but also the blower and cooling coil. If your bar allows smoking it gets even worse. I remember going on service calls to bars for poorly performing a/c, only to have the owner singing my praises after I thoroughly cleaned the unit of tobacco film and dirt.

    One more question: have you always had this problem of the system not keeping the bar comfortable in summer, or has it crept up over the years? If the latter, I would look at a good cleaning before going further.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Emerald Coast
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    936
    Quote Originally Posted by sscarrluck View Post
    Existing “5 ton” unit.
    Bar is 70’ x 20’ rectangle. Ceilings 10’.
    ... The thermostat in the bar is way to hot at 85+
    The temp in the bar has cut business by 50 during these hot summer days.
    .

    Awfully short all the way around.

    You have just enough capacity for the room with three people playing cards on a
    95* day.
    ..
    Do not attempt vast projects with
    half vast experience and ideas.
    ...

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