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  1. #1
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    I contend LNS Lonworks is a more flexible, scaleable, and lower overall cost solution to Tridium for new BAS.

    What happens to the bindings in a Trid network?
    Or, comm's between protocols?
    How do I pass on Tridium config information?
    Where is the published standard for Tridium?
    Can I develop my own boxes that can talk to Tridium and configure Tridium boxes?
    Can I take that Trid box and toss it and the BAS will still function normally?

    I make a copy of the LNS database and walk away with it. Multiple platforms can work with the database simultaneously on multiple vendors products. I can unplug my ilon100 webserver and walk away with that too and things keep going.

    I can exchange that ilon webserver with something else or mix it with different webservers, routers and OPC servers... and a software package. Whatever. It's a distributed, peer to peer network with very good error control. No subsystem changeouts necessary.

  2. #2
    Hey sysint:
    Having some experience and hearing from folks with Tridium you have some great points. A lot of the problems occur on the sales end. Most of the jobs I see Tridium is sold as a LON solution, like as in 'LON?, oh yeah we can do that' instead of looking into the details, which many customers never see.

    In Tridium the bindings are in the box, there is no need for an LNS database. If the customer wants to yank the box later for whatever reason they got major problems.

    Unless you have an agreement with Tridium you will never get their standards to develop anything.

    They are sold as being non- proprietary but the way they try to get there is more proprietary than the other controls companies.

    Keep up the good work, sysint!

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by sysint
    I contend LNS Lonworks is a more flexible, scaleable, and lower overall cost solution to Tridium for new BAS.
    That would be hard to debate

    What happens to the bindings in a Trid network?
    You can bind directly from one LON device to another, does not need to go through the JACE.

    Or, comm's between protocols?
    This goes through the JACE, but no different than if you used a gateway and you "lost" your gateway.


    How do I pass on Tridium config information?
    Super easy, its saved as a "Station" You can have a single and complete "backup" of the entire job. Replace the jace, download the station to the new jace, and nothing knows the difference. Or one could take the Station and load it onto their own computer and test/tune/add/whatever to see how it works without having to do it live on the system.


    Where is the published standard for Tridium?
    You'll have to call them for that.


    Can I develop my own boxes that can talk to Tridium and configure Tridium boxes?
    Yep!


    Can I take that Trid box and toss it and the BAS will still function normally?
    Yep! (your question is way to vague, come on sys)
    If logic is being used in the Jace, then no, but if the Jace is not installed as an integral part of the system, then sure you can remove it. Some people only use the jace for graphical/trend/alarm, etc... purposes.

    I make a copy of the LNS database and walk away with it. Multiple platforms can work with the database simultaneously on multiple vendors products. I can unplug my ilon100 webserver and walk away with that too and things keep going.
    Nothing you cant do with the Jace...
    Backup the "station" (the Jace can also back up its station when ever and to where ever)
    Unplug the Jace and walk away as well, nothing says you HAVE to use the Jace logic.
    I can go to a LNS job, plug in a Jace, and pull all info from the system, add graphics, trends, alarms, etc... and the LNS system would not even know I was there. (yes, I have done this)


    I can exchange that ilon webserver with something else or mix it with different webservers, routers and OPC servers... and a software package. Whatever. It's a distributed, peer to peer network with very good error control. No subsystem changeouts necessary.
    Like I said in the last paragraph, I can also plug in to a LNS system and not effect the operation.


    I am NOT saying Tridium is better than LNS, and I am not saying LNS is better than Tridium. Each has its good and bad points, neither is "Perfect".

    BTW, answer my darn email! I need help on that! hahaha!

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by oldtimecontrolsguy

    In Tridium the bindings are in the box
    Not true


    Unless you have an agreement with Tridium you will never get their standards to develop anything.
    Not true


    They are sold as being non- proprietary but the way they try to get there is more proprietary than the other controls companies.
    I disagree with this

  5. #5
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    "Or, comm's between protocols?"
    This goes through the JACE, but no different than if you used a gateway and you "lost" your gateway.

    But, in the comparison this is a negative. Therefore, it is not an advantage to a LNS LON network. Just as using the Modbus in a ilon100 in a LNS LON network would be a negative (or a gateway).

    Like I said in the last paragraph, I can also plug in to a LNS system and not effect the operation. -most definitely you would affect the operation of the network.

    "Can I develop my own boxes that can talk to Tridium and configure Tridium boxes?"
    Yep! TOO vague.

    If logic is being used in the Jace, then no...
    Expound-

    It seems you are indicating that if you are using the JACE for applications other than LON or LNS LON it is far less effective as an independant device.

    I'm not knocking what it can do. I'm dispelling it's effectiveness and advantage in a new network. It's more of a very nicely designed crutch than a solution.

    SCALEABILITY - the largest device control network in the world is a LON network of over 27 million nodes. I would translate that to about a 1,620,000,000 point job. The largest Tridium job is....?

    Lynxspring (got a letter today) utilizes the Niagra Framework. I'm sure they have a license. It's not an independant development. Contrast that with Loytec or Sysmik who don't license anything from Echelon in their products which can reside happily in LNS. Loytec has their own "chips".

    [Edited by sysint on 09-13-2006 at 10:10 PM]

  6. #6
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    I know, just clearing it up incase someone thought the ilon did multi-protocol "sharing" differently than the ilon or any gateway for that matter.

    How do you figure I would affect the network? The Jace will READ only. Maybe I am not understanding something here, but like I said, I have not seen any problems with doing so. I am not "commissioning/binding/etc... anything on the network, just simply pulling info.

    A jace can be used as a simple webserver just like the ilon can, you dont have to actually utilize any of the other capabilites of the Jace, it will still function as a GUI only.

    Lynxspring has created their own software that talks to a JACE. Others have as well.

    Have you answered my email yet??? I NEED YOUR HELP!!!

    Darnit! Stop editing before I can even answer! hahaha

    Expound??? A Jace can be used as a controller/gui/gateway,etc... it can do any or all at the same time. Its a very powerful GUI.

    In a "new network" that is going to be 100% LON, then maybe. But when your dealing with non-lon and lon equipment, or anything for that matter, it is a solid solution. It may be a crutch in some applications, but its a crutch made of titanium...

    27mill node job does not mean that LNS is better than Tridium, not sure where your going with that?

    Now answer my email!!!

    [Edited by codewriter on 09-13-2006 at 10:10 PM]

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by codewriter
    I know, just clearing it up incase someone thought the ilon did multi-protocol "sharing" differently than the ilon or any gateway for that matter.

    How do you figure I would affect the network? The Jace will READ only. Maybe I am not understanding something here, but like I said, I have not seen any problems with doing so. I am not "commissioning/binding/etc... anything on the network, just simply pulling info.

    A jace can be used as a simple webserver just like the ilon can, you dont have to actually utilize any of the other capabilites of the Jace, it will still function as a GUI only.

    Lynxspring has created their own software that talks to a JACE. Others have as well.

    Have you answered my email yet??? I NEED YOUR HELP!!!

    Darnit! Stop editing before I can even answer! hahaha

    Expound??? A Jace can be used as a controller/gui/gateway,etc... it can do any or all at the same time. Its a very powerful GUI.

    In a "new network" that is going to be 100% LON, then maybe. But when your dealing with non-lon and lon equipment, or anything for that matter, it is a solid solution. It may be a crutch in some applications, but its a crutch made of titanium...

    27mill node job does not mean that LNS is better than Tridium, not sure where your going with that?

    Tridium is not meant to compete head to head with "LON/LONWORKS/LNS/etc...", it was never meant to compete with anyone in fact. Competing with a single protocol could mean death... Having the ability to work with all protocols is a better bet, and thats what they are doing. Cant blame them!

    Now answer my email!!!

    [Edited by codewriter on 09-13-2006 at 10:10 PM]

  8. #8
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    ugh... now I am confused and have a headache!

  9. #9
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    May 2002
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    Here's another device that resides in LNS that really puts a dent in a Tridium box - Sysmik
    Just read the datasheet on it...

    Highlights:

    The ICS-852 can be a member of two different LON channels at the same time, a TP/FT-10 and an IP-852.
    Beyond that, the Ethernet interface opens the door to the world of IP with the integrated web server for browser visualization and IP based data exchange.
    As a special advantage the ICS-852 contains an integrated Ethernet switch that provides two external Ethernet ports. This allows to couple ICS-852 devices in line topology without using separate switches.

    Key performance details are (up to):
    - 2 x 4096 network variables / 2 x 4096 alias table entries
    - 2 x 65536 address table entries
    - 2016 local input / output channels.

  10. #10
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    If you say so...

  11. #11
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    No Niagra Framework licensing required. Still can reside on a device level peer to peer network along with IP-852 network and Ethernet web server. Add I/O as necessary.

    Nicely done. Great for OEM.

  12. #12
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    Tridium is not meant to compete head to head with "LON/LONWORKS/LNS/etc...",.... Competing with a single protocol could mean death... Having the ability to work with all protocols is a better bet, and thats what they are doing."

    Being able to get to an exchange on the web is a better bet.
    Being able to have a rock solid peer to peer device level network is a better bet.

    Therefore, Modbus and bacnet MSTP is not better. So, working with all protocols isn't inherently better, just convenient.

  13. #13
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    Jun 2006
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    127
    Hey Sys, how about Modbus TCP, Modbus RTU, and bacnet/lon can die.

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