Any benefit to adding 5-inch media filter when new system is installed?

[tedkidd]

Its not just a setup tool, it's a design tool.

If there's not enough duct for the current system and you replace same for same, that's potentially $50 a month in higher energy costs and shortened equipment life that could have been avoided.

Of course neither of those are burdens on the contractor.

[udarrell]

I was talking about a contractor licensed PRO that knows his stuff.

Unless he has a lot of money to advertise; if the job isn't done right he won't be in business very long because word gets around & his referrals will dry-up.

It catches up with the one man operator if the equipment doesn't hold up & do the job right; however, the large operator usually has strong advertising & is well known therefore, in a large city they can just keep rolling along hooking new suckers with their line....

I started in this business before the mid-1970's & I followed a lot of large contractors; it appeared to me like they were hiring guys off the street & telling them how to use a manifold gage to add charge & little else.

I got a lot of work because they screwed-up a lot &, big-time too often.

So don't tell me about the big outfits being better than the small ones; most may have been okay, but my experience taught me that too many weren't okay...their sole mission, with at least some of their service workers, appeared to be just to make a fast buck.

An uninformed customer doesn't know they're getting ripped-off until it is way too late...

[tedkidd]

An uninformed customer doesn't know they're getting ripped-off until it is way too late...

...If ever.

If your car got 7 mpg you'd know pretty quick. Who has any idea what MPG their HOUSE gets?

Really, that $50 a month in higher energy costs and shortened equipment life that could have been avoided is not transparent now, next year, or ever. (People simply don't track consumption on a meaningful level, and utilities make it harder rather than easier.)

Well, it won't be clear until we have a tool that lets us easily compare our consumption to other peoples. When that happens the whole game changes. When there is a contractor registry based upon ability to deliver savings promised, contractors will be highly motivated to put effort into diagnostics and design up front, with a focus on energy efficiency instead of bigger is better.

[Florida Joy]

Really, that $50 a month in higher energy costs and shortened equipment life that could have been avoided is not transparent now, next year, or ever. (People simply don't track consumption on a meaningful level, and utilities make it harder rather than easier.)

Thing is, I DO track my consumption, and I DO know my neighbors on both sides use significantly less electric than I do, with "fairly" similar homes and, in one case, the exact same 3.5T HP, in the other, ~same age, different brand, 3T HP. Of course, I don't use setbacks because I'm home all day long, and I can tell they both do because their systems cycle on and off when they're not home during the day.

If I'm paying more now because of my decrepit (corroded) condenser, that's fine. If I replace the equipment and STILL END UP PAYING MORE, I'll not be a happy camper.

Now if I can just find a contractor who gets that. After spending so much time on this forum, I'm really paranoid about making a costly mistake!

[Joehvac25]

I was talking about a contractor licensed PRO that knows his stuff.

Unless he has a lot of money to advertise; if the job isn't done right he won't be in business very long because word gets around & his referrals will dry-up.

It catches up with the one man operator if the equipment doesn't hold up & do the job right; however, the large operator usually has strong advertising & is well known therefore, in a large city they can just keep rolling along hooking new suckers with their line....

I started in this business before the mid-1970's & I followed a lot of large contractors; it appeared to me like they were hiring guys off the street & telling them how to use a manifold gage to add charge & little else.

I got a lot of work because they screwed-up a lot &, big-time too often.

So don't tell me about the big outfits being better than the small ones; most may have been okay, but my experience taught me that too many weren't okay...their sole mission, with at least some of their service workers, appeared to be just to make a fast buck.

An uninformed customer doesn't know they're getting ripped-off until it is way too late...

I get what your saying, I just see the same hacks getting work and staying busy, it's no secret they are crooks, and we live in a small area so it just blows my mind they keep rolling. Company's big or small can be hacks, I work for a small company that just tries to install stuff the way it should be. I was wrong to single out one man outfits, I just had one in mind that I really can't stand because I'm always stuck with there garbage work.


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[54regcab]

Thing is, I DO track my consumption, and I DO know my neighbors on both sides use significantly less electric than I do, with "fairly" similar homes and, in one case, the exact same 3.5T HP, in the other, ~same age, different brand, 3T HP. Of course, I don't use setbacks because I'm home all day long, and I can tell they both do because their systems cycle on and off when they're not home during the day.

If I'm paying more now because of my decrepit (corroded) condenser, that's fine. If I replace the equipment and STILL END UP PAYING MORE, I'll not be a happy camper.

Now if I can just find a contractor who gets that. After spending so much time on this forum, I'm really paranoid about making a costly mistake!

Using smaller equipment and fixing the house is the key to lowering energy bills. Oversized equipment masks problems with the house and installation. Oversized equipment can be operating at 75% capacity and the homeowner would never know if it's oversized by 30%. Correctly sized equipment will make the house hot/cold if it isn't performing at near 100% of capacity.

[Florida Joy]

Found the leak in the unfinished return cavity. The HVAC guy who "repaired" the duct leaks identified by the FPL blower door test would have had to "look up" to see it. It was probably easier to just put ductboard on the bottom and sides of the cavity and call it done, so he wouldn't have to twist his neck or lie on his back and "look up" to see this rather sizeable hole.
Attachment 316201
I wonder if they'll come back and do it right if I complain to FPL about one of their PIC list contractors doing substandard work?

The contractor who did the poor job sealing the return has promised to "schedule" me for a return visit to fix it. We'll see how many times I have to call before they put me on their "schedule".

[energy star]

Doesn't your unit sit on a shelf in a closet? Is the supply duct sealed going into the attic? Would not that hole actually be "in" the envelope of the house? It would only pull back conditioned air, not air from a crawl space or attic? It (the hole) looks as if its in the shelf that holds the unit up.

Is that MOLD I see on the a/c coil & panning? Also, Is the hole (cut for the return) in the shelf as big as the intake on the piece of equipment?

[Florida Joy]

Doesn't your unit sit on a shelf in a closet? Is the supply duct sealed going into the attic? Would not that hole actually be "in" the envelope of the house? It would only pull back conditioned air, not air from a crawl space or attic? It (the hole) looks as if its in the shelf that holds the unit up.

Not exactly. The hole is in the 2x4 that's part of the framework on the underside of the shelf on the back edge up against the wall where the filter grill comes through the wall into the hallway. There's no drywall on the laundry room side of the wall under this shelf. What you see to the right of the 2x4 (which has the actual hole in it) is the insulation between the drywall in the hallway (far right) that runs floor to ceiling, and the drywall in the laundry, that starts at the level of the shelf and runs to the ceiling. Depending on the integrity of the plate at the top of the wall, this open wall cavity would likely leak air from the attic. In any case, that wall extends beyond the conditioned laundry and forms the boundry between my "guest wing" hallway and my unconditioned garage. Air inside that wall cavity wouldn't be fully "conditioned".

Is that MOLD I see on the a/c coil & panning?

It's a little dirty, but I didn't find mold when I crawled inside (as much as I could without completely removing the filter grill).

Also, Is the hole (cut for the return) in the shelf as big as the intake on the piece of equipment?

According to the specs for my a/h, the intake is 20x20. I didn't use a tape measure, but by eyeballing it, the hole looks closer to 18x18. Unfortunately, the intake is further restricted by a 2x4 support in the middle of the shelf that runs across the center of the hole.

More stuff I need to make sure the "new" equipment installer corrects!

[Florida Joy]

this open wall cavity would likely leak air from the attic.

Contractor came out this morning and sealed the "hole" and the space between the a/h stand and the wallboard. Hopefully, no more air leaking into the return from the attic!

It's a little dirty, but I didn't find mold when I crawled inside (as much as I could without completely removing the filter grill).

Contractor confirmed there's no mold on the inlet and it's relatively clean.

According to the specs for my a/h, the intake is 20x20. I didn't use a tape measure, but by eyeballing it, the hole looks closer to 18x18. Unfortunately, the intake is further restricted by a 2x4 support in the middle of the shelf that runs across the center of the hole.

More stuff I need to make sure the "new" equipment installer corrects!

Contractor measured the opening under the a/h.... it's only 16.5 x 16.5. Current a/h was installed for a previous HO in 1999/2000 and they likely replaced the old one without sizing the hole to match the new a/h.

Grrrr.... I guess the HO has to walk behind the installer every step of the way to make sure it's done right... like the way they put the condensing unit half on/half off the concrete pad!

[tedkidd]

Contractor measured the opening under the a/h.... it's only 16.5 x 16.5. Current a/h was installed for a previous HO in 1999/2000 and they likely replaced the old one without sizing the hole to match the new a/h.

Grrrr.... I guess the HO has to walk behind the installer every step of the way to make sure it's done right... like the way they put the condensing unit half on/half off the concrete pad!

And you begin to see this from a completely different orientation, eh? This is why I encourage everyone to get diagnostics and design figured out in advance. Have a clearly defined specification that contractors can bid to.

3 "free" quotes means a lot of running around for "free" to get one job. Some homeowners go to 5-6 free quotes. That means I run 6 quotes for 1 job which has to carry the cost of the 5 other quotes. What appears free must be paid by someone, and that someone is you. (How much of your money you want spent doing design and specification for 5 other people, because that cost is part of what you are paying!)

So design and specification suffers because you can't do ekg, xray, and mri for free, so everyone makes little better than WAG.

Once the job is one they don't say, "oh, we simply guessed before, figuring we wouldn't get the job. We oversized by 17,000 btu, this duct will never handle 1400cfm."

No, that's not what happens. Once the die is cast they gotta keep rolling or they'll never survive. The equipment on the contract is getting installed no matter what duct is discovered. It's a race to the bottom. This is survival. The energy bill, and if the equipment works well, are not the concern. Getting the job done as quickly and cheaply as possible, and having the stuff WORK is the concern.

Wait until you see what your ESP is. I'm thinking you'll be then , then hopefully thank your lucky stars you took the opportunity to do it right.

The energy bill will be the true tell. A year from now share your savings.

[energy star]

Exactly.

Would like to see that number.

16.5 x16.5 maybe the origional equipment was smaller (2.5 or 3-Ton) and because of duct leaks, no film applied to sliders, and other items you decided to repair, they just opted for a larger system?