Trane 60 ton chiller - low flow issues

[cool_tech_llc]

We have looked at a Trane 60 ton chiller that possibly has multiple problems and we are working with the factory maintenance people who think that the low flow issues are due to the chiller barrel tubing being restricted. Are hands are somewhat tied due to the fact that the maintenance people want to do as much as they can do. We asked a lot of questions and made some suggestions and then didn't hear back. Recently I ran into one of the powers that be and he said that "Trane" told them that they could not clean the chiller barrel.
Has anyone ever heard of this? Isn't this a standard tube/shell barrel?
Thanks.

[mikeacman]

If the water is in the shell ...

Good luck if it's that trashed

Just changed an 80 ton barrel last spring that that customer had another company try and clean to no avail...

Not saying it can't be done ,, depends on what's in there ...that will determine what cleaning agent you will need to use

[Tommy knocker]

M#? Barrel can be cleaned. Depending on type of barrel can brush tubes or clean chemically. don't recommend offering any advice to them. If they want to do it themselves let them figure it out themselves. If you tell them how and they jack it up guess who will get blamed.

[KnewYork]

A 60 ton chiller with a flooded evaporator? Model number would prove or disprove. I know York doesn't make anything that small with a flooded evaporator. That tonnage range has always been DX in recent history. I would say cleaning the water side of a DX chiller would be a daunting task knowing how they are constructed. cool_tech_llc, were you on the job? Did you see the chiller? You should be able to tell us if it's DX or flooded.

[Nuclrchiller]

A 60 ton chiller with a flooded evaporator? Model number would prove or disprove. I know York doesn't make anything that small with a flooded evaporator. That tonnage range has always been DX in recent history. I would say cleaning the water side of a DX chiller would be a daunting task knowing how they are constructed. cool_tech_llc, were you on the job? Did you see the chiller? You should be able to tell us if it's DX or flooded.

X2. As far as I can remember, that also applies to Trane.

[mikeacman]

x1
I'm sure water is in the shell

Again I say good luck with that if it's plugged with trash

[Tommy knocker]

x1
I'm sure water is in the shell

Again I say good luck with that if it's plugged with trash

Or full of mud. Sound familure? Haha

[Southern Mech]

Just replaced an evap on a 100 ton rtaa machine. Plant accidentally ran hotwater in the evap and messed up the devision plates, they are plastic. Upon removing the barrel, I noticed how fowled the rig was. The chiller had been running 110% load trying to keep the load, it now runs 75%. Of course now the plant wants to add more equipment to the line... Which equals putting her back against the wall.24/7/365.

[mikeacman]

That's why I said good luck with that ,,,,

Water treatment people ....there's a whole bunch of people that do that for a living ..

Its not that hard or expensive for a closed loop

[R123]

If it's a newer chiller, you probably have a plate frame heat exchanger. If it is, good luck cleaning it.

[cool_tech_llc]

FYI - it is shell & tube (liquid in shell, refrig. in tubes) which is probably why they were told that it wasn't easy to clean. Check this link - http://local.alfalaval.com/en-us/key...20-%206.10.pdf

They claim that the water is treated and routinely tested to meet standards, but the head maintenance guy did take me up to the roof to get a peek at it and I saw (no tools, just experience) that there were other possible problems (refrig. charge issues, semi-dirty coils, etc..). After a recent discussion with them we might be called in to check out the problem further. I'll keep you posted!

To clarify the situation a little, in the past we have made major repairs to some of their other chillers but they decided (to save $) to train (in house) someone to do PM's and even repairs to these systems. While I understand, it leaves us in a precarious position on calls like this. But hey, they pay us just for consulting which isn't all bad!

[cool_tech_llc]

Just replaced an evap on a 100 ton rtaa machine. Plant accidentally ran hotwater in the evap and messed up the devision plates, they are plastic. Upon removing the barrel, I noticed how fowled the rig was. The chiller had been running 110% load trying to keep the load, it now runs 75%. Of course now the plant wants to add more equipment to the line... Which equals putting her back against the wall.24/7/365.

Give them an inch and they will want 50% more BTU's. Hard to believe that I still have most of my hair.

[cool_tech_llc]

A 60 ton chiller with a flooded evaporator? Model number would prove or disprove. I know York doesn't make anything that small with a flooded evaporator. That tonnage range has always been DX in recent history. I would say cleaning the water side of a DX chiller would be a daunting task knowing how they are constructed. cool_tech_llc, were you on the job? Did you see the chiller? You should be able to tell us if it's DX or flooded.

Sorry, I missed your post. Yes it's DX. didn't find out until today.

[Nuclrchiller]

I would troubleshoot the unit myself, if ya'll get called in. Their explanation of the problem, and of their diagnosis, might be "slanted" to back up their belief. It's just human nature to look for agreement. If they took a wrong turn in their troubleshooting, you don't want to follow them down that path.

[dlove]

I don't understand, why do they "think its flow" perform a flow test would answer that. How is the chemical treatment there? just because they think they have a great program in place it don't take but one day to foul the tubes. and if a week went by the tubes could be really fouled.

As soon as somebody said flow i would have done test. If the test come back good, Chemicals next.

[KnewYork]

...it don't take but one day to foul the tubes. and if a week went by the tubes could be really fouled.

Really? A day? Let's be realistic here. It'd take a lot longer than a day to foul an evaporator (closed loop). Even a condenser w/o treatment won't foul to the point of reduced flow in a day, nor a week.

[mikeacman]

FYI - it is shell & tube (liquid in shell, refrig. in tubes) which is probably why they were told that it wasn't easy to clean. Check this link - http://local.alfalaval.com/en-us/key...20-%206.10.pdf

They claim that the water is treated and routinely tested to meet standards,

Ive heard that one before , matter a fact I heard that line today ...

I call BS

If it's fouled that is ...I say troubleshoot it yourself ...you may come to a different conclusion ,,,

[dlove]

Really? A day? Let's be realistic here. It'd take a lot longer than a day to foul an evaporator (closed loop). Even a condenser w/o treatment won't foul to the point of reduced flow in a day, nor a week.

go back to the original post "they think" its flow. My assumption is and maybe the OP can clarify, is they are having problems with cooling or load demand. And yes fouling of the tube can happen real fast when you have hard water. I seen it happen, not enough to restrict flow but enough to effect the approach and load demand.

[KnewYork]

And yes fouling of the tube can happen real fast when you have hard water. I seen it happen, not enough to restrict flow but enough to effect the approach and load demand.

First of all, the OP didn't even know the evaporator was DX. If you want to hold on to the notion that an evaporator bundle (whether DX or flooded) can foul "real fast" because it doesn't have water treatment, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not sure what "real fast" is from a quantitative standpoint, but your original statement was a day or week. Is "real fast" more or less than a week?

I am a proponent of fact based decision making. I do not believe you have any quantiative facts to back up your statement with regard to fouling. To shift the focus to performance rather than flow is also not based in fact or the OP's original statements.

[dlove]

We have looked at a Trane 60 ton chiller that possibly has multiple problems and we are working with the factory maintenance people who think that the low flow issues are due to the chiller barrel tubing being restricted. Are hands are somewhat tied due to the fact that the maintenance people want to do as much as they can do. We asked a lot of questions and made some suggestions and then didn't hear back. Recently I ran into one of the powers that be and he said that "Trane" told them that they could not clean the chiller barrel.
Has anyone ever heard of this? Isn't this a standard tube/shell barrel?
Thanks.

That's all I'm saying.. i guess we have to wait to see if it was flow or not.. but if you had hard water, no chemical or poor chemicals how long before you foul the coils..in your estimation?