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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    new jersey
    Posts
    366

    high tech rack systems

    I was talking to a co worker about the west coast being more advanced than the east coast.

    This seems to hold true from what I read here....

    I have never been in the west and wanted to hear what you are woking on....

    I'm still working on old Hill dou- mates,

    20+yr old Hussman Atlanta screw racks.

    The old powder blue Super plus racks.

    Please tell me you guys are still working on this stuff too???

    Not to many stepper valves, mostly sorit, sorit-pi or sport :-)

    I even read that the Seasons 4 are now using it's own discharge for re-heat.

    What do you guys have?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,066
    I've been doing supermarkets in the Los Angeles California area for 5 1/2 years now.

    We have all that old stuff + all the new stuff.

    A lot of the older stores have been retrofitted to EMS controls. VFD's on the air handlers & condensers, mechanical time clocks replaced with relay boards.

    New stores pretty much all have full blown EMS systems, photo cell light level controls, anti-sweat pulse panels, VSD's on air handlers, condensers, lead compressors. Some go with stepper valves, electronic expansion valves (typically on the subcooler) others still use purely mechanical EPR's.

    A handful of chains now have a Co2 store up an running. A Albertsons just recently started up a 100% natural refrigerant store, Ammonia/Co2.

    Hussmann protocol type racks are popular for new stores/remodels too.

    There's all kinds of stuff I'm leaving out too, but at the end of the day, its just more stuff that breaks for me to fix!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,723
    Quote Originally Posted by Phase Loss View Post
    I've been doing supermarkets in the Los Angeles California area for 5 1/2 years now.

    We have all that old stuff + all the new stuff.

    A lot of the older stores have been retrofitted to EMS controls. VFD's on the air handlers & condensers, mechanical time clocks replaced with relay boards.

    New stores pretty much all have full blown EMS systems, photo cell light level controls, anti-sweat pulse panels, VSD's on air handlers, condensers, lead compressors. Some go with stepper valves, electronic expansion valves (typically on the subcooler) others still use purely mechanical EPR's.

    A handful of chains now have a Co2 store up an running. A Albertsons just recently started up a 100% natural refrigerant store, Ammonia/Co2.

    Hussmann protocol type racks are popular for new stores/remodels too.

    There's all kinds of stuff I'm leaving out too, but at the end of the day, its just more stuff that breaks for me to fix!
    I've got a nice mixture here, too.

    Steppers, EXVs, old hussmanns and Hills.

    Never a dull moment.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    5,512
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    I've got a nice mixture here, too.

    Steppers, EXVs, old hussmanns and Hills.

    Never a dull moment.

    X2 Would like to add glycol,CCB's,CL100's and sms to the mess.
    I love the smell of phosgene first thing in the morning:

    To apply for professional membership click here


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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    new jersey
    Posts
    366
    Let me throw more into the mix...

    KVQ valve, AKV valves, akcess 25.... bet you guys haven't seen that stuff in a while.

    We still have stores w/ IPC ( Intelligent pressure control).

    Oh, don't forget about the old Encore sys. Any of that still around? good old Charlie Travers.

    And last but not least....Trend:-)

    On a good note just got 3 new Zero Zone racks w/ Intelligent store discuss compessors.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    5,512
    Quote Originally Posted by sprmktrefertech View Post
    Let me throw more into the mix...

    KVQ valve, AKV valves, akcess 25.... bet you guys haven't seen that stuff in a while.

    We still have stores w/ IPC ( Intelligent pressure control).

    Oh, don't forget about the old Encore sys. Any of that still around? good old Charlie Travers.

    And last but not least....Trend:-)

    On a good note just got 3 new Zero Zone racks w/ Intelligent store discuss compessors.

    Yep IPC the good old days.
    I love the smell of phosgene first thing in the morning:

    To apply for professional membership click here


    Educational forums are open.

    If you would like to submit a link or an article or other related info to the EF. click here

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Phase Loss View Post
    Albertsons just recently started up a 100% natural refrigerant store, Ammonia/Co2.
    Does it have any technical merit or is it for recognition and awards like Greenchill, LEED and PR stunt so they can say "we use sustainable natural low GWP non ozone wrecking refrigerant and they don't" ?

    Projecting an image of high level of concerns for environmental protection is a marketing tool frequently used in places with high proportion of tree hugging liberal hippies.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,723
    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    Does it have any technical merit or is it for recognition and awards like Greenchill, LEED and PR stunt so they can say "we use sustainable natural low GWP non ozone wrecking refrigerant and they don't" ?

    Projecting an image of high level of concerns for environmental protection is a marketing tool frequently used in places with high proportion of tree hugging liberal hippies.
    Ammonia is a VERY good refrigerant. Far better than the CFC/HCFC/HFCs that have replaced it. Propane is also a very good refrigerant.

    They aren't commonly used for obvious reasons.

    I think that, today, these stores are mostly flukes... marketing gimmicks. Stores built and operated for proof of concept and to project an environmentally conscious image

    What I see coming down the road is further restrictions on HFCs as global warming gasses. With that, you'll see higher taxes on them, possibly restrictions on the amount that can be manufactured.

    That would make stores like this more practical.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,924
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Ammonia is a VERY good refrigerant. Far better than the CFC/HCFC/HFCs that have replaced it. Propane is also a very good refrigerant.
    My question was more about CO2.
    Ammonia is commonly used in food processing but even without Government control it's use is limited. It is incompatible with a lot of materials used in refrigeration and perhaps the only refrigerant that is used practically with extreme affinity for water.

    Ammonia attacks copper alloys and is toxic. In US they allow shipping as non-flammable gas like nitrogen, but everywhere else, it has to be marked as inhalation hazard.

    With that, you'll see higher taxes on them, possibly restrictions on the amount that can be manufactured.

    That would make stores like this more practical.
    True, but that would still be for non technical reasons.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    12,077
    if the program is done correctly, and the sensible use of alarming and correct sensors sect, sect, the new stuff is great, offers easier troubleshooting.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Australia : Queensland
    Posts
    802
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Ammonia is a VERY good refrigerant. Far better than the CFC/HCFC/HFCs that have replaced it. Propane is also a very good refrigerant.

    They aren't commonly used for obvious reasons.

    I think that, today, these stores are mostly flukes... marketing gimmicks. Stores built and operated for proof of concept and to project an environmentally conscious image

    What I see coming down the road is further restrictions on HFCs as global warming gasses. With that, you'll see higher taxes on them, possibly restrictions on the amount that can be manufactured.

    That would make stores like this more practical.

    We have just had this phase ourselves , Refrigerant R404A, widely used in industrial and supermarket refrigeration, will increase from $92.88 per kilo to $377.71 per kilo following the implementation of the carbon tax.

    I have attached some reference material incase you guys need some evidence.


    Carbon Tax.pdf
    Gas2Go_CarbonTaxUpdate_LR.pdf
    July 2012 Refrigerant List Price Advice.pdf
    The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the fabricator and impossible for the serviceman.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,066
    I was just in a store last Friday that has wireless case sensors responding back to Comtrol.

    pretty fancy.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    5,512
    Quote Originally Posted by Phase Loss View Post
    I was just in a store last Friday that has wireless case sensors responding back to Comtrol.

    pretty fancy.
    Comtrol and fancy just don't sound right.
    I love the smell of phosgene first thing in the morning:

    To apply for professional membership click here


    Educational forums are open.

    If you would like to submit a link or an article or other related info to the EF. click here

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