How Much Electrical Work Is An A/C Contractor Allowed To Do?

[second opinion]

Duh?! I know that! Did he read my post that opened this thread? That's why I asked the question about qualifications in the first place.

Sometimes people will ask questions about a thought or an opinion that they are not sure about, as in your case he was reassuring you to do the right thing and ask for compliance to safety codes.

[Florida Joy]

Or maybe he was trying to reply to another thread, and replied to this one by mistake.

Don't crucify those that are trying to help.

I asked for forgiveness in case I appeared rude... and I forgive his him if he replied to the wrong thread. No crudifix in my pocket and no offense intended.

[carmon]

I hate to bring this up.... you can have all the qualifications in the world..... but if you do it wrong..... its wrong..... where I am we are allowed to wire from panel to A/C unit.. permits are required.... problem is inspections are rarely done and most inspectors are unsure what they are looking at anyway.... best bet is to make sure local codes are followed......

[Florida Joy]

I hate to bring this up.... you can have all the qualifications in the world..... but if you do it wrong..... its wrong..... where I am we are allowed to wire from panel to A/C unit.. permits are required.... problem is inspections are rarely done and most inspectors are unsure what they are looking at anyway.... best bet is to make sure local codes are followed......

I do agree! But isn't that why we pay the county/city building inspectors out of our property tax money? Seems that's a heavy burden to put on the average homeowner... checking code and inspecting their own contractor's work. What is this world coming to?

[beenthere]

I do agree! But isn't that why we pay the county/city building inspectors out of our property tax money? Seems that's a heavy burden to put on the average homeowner... checking code and inspecting their own contractor's work. What is this world coming to?

Carmon is from way up north.

[Florida Joy]

Carmon is from way up north.

OK, I see... north of the border.

[udarrell]

Forgive me... I don't want to be rude... but I don't see how this response has any bearing on my situation or helps to answer my question. Thanks anyway.

Well, it was not actually meant for your situation, & no you shouldn't ask them about it, we already know what they'd say. We often cite examples; sorry I offended you.

Concerning your situation, I pulled inspection permits on every job I did & I always run the new whip from the disconnect, never had a complaint by an inspector; every contractor I knew did it.

Perhaps some codes don't allow it except by licensed electricians; as long as it's done in total accord with the code, I don't see the need for a code adding the expense of a sub to do it; it's very simple on residential jobs. IMO, the HVAC code inspector should be required to check the electrical as to code from the main breakers.

[dan sw fl]

Look at your Florida Code section 489.105 for Air conditioning contractors class A,B, and C.

A and B can hook up to existing load side of disconnect but can not run from service panel to disconnect. C is service only

DEFINITIONS


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0489.105.html

X
BUYER BEWARE.

[Florida Joy]

DEFINITIONS


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0489.105.html

X
BUYER BEWARE.

Thanks. I googled this earlier this evening. Florda statute specifically excludes "electrical power wiring" from the AC contractor's license, be it a Class A, B, or C license. Doesn't seem to allow any exception for "whips from disconnect to condenser" and definitely doesn't allow wiring to/from the power distribution panel. Yet, A/C contractors apparently do it all the time. Buyer beware, for sure!

Interesting that I now have a third contractor under consideration as of this morning. He was totally upfront with me and said his quote would not include electric, as he is not licensed for electric. He does work with a certain electrical contractor and he said he would provide them the specs on the A/C job and have them call to set up an appointment to quote the required electrical work. Guess I'm getting old... this is exactly how I remember things being done in the 60's and 70's when I was new at home ownership and wanted to change or add central air.

I just went over the quote the non-EC contractor had emailed me one more time, word by word, and found something interesting. Although we had specifically discussed the code requirement to change aluminum wiring to copper from the panel to the air handler, and I have his answer to my email asking if he would (could) be doing that work (he said he could and would), nowhere in the proposal is any mention of changing the wiring from the panel to the airr handler!!!!!!!

I am really leary of dealing with the non-EC guy now!

Buyer beware has been my motto for over half a century!

[Florida Joy]

Well, it was not actually meant for your situation, & no you shouldn't ask them about it, we already know what they'd say. We often cite examples; sorry I offended you.

Concerning your situation, I pulled inspection permits on every job I did & I always run the new whip from the disconnect, never had a complaint by an inspector; every contractor I knew did it.

Perhaps some codes don't allow it except by licensed electricians; as long as it's done in total accord with the code, I don't see the need for a code adding the expense of a sub to do it; it's very simple on residential jobs. IMO, the HVAC code inspector should be required to check the electrical as to code from the main breakers.

No problem, not offended, just wondering what course of action you were recommending FOR ME.

And now I'm even more confused about your advice! It sounds like you don't mind ignoring code and doing the electrical yourself because residential is "simple" and you don't see the need to comply because, I guess, you know what your doing and can follow "code" and the electrical licensing requirement is.... not necessary for guys like you? And besides, everybody does it?

So are you saying if my AC guy "knows what he's doing", I shouldn't worry if he has the license required by Florida statute or not?

[vstech]

put it this way...
Plumbers are allowed to connect gas lines, and electrical lines on changeout jobs without either license... Plumbers are not even required to pull a permit to change an appliance like a water heater...
for some reason, HVAC technicians do not have the clout in the licensing board to allow us to perform the same tasks... even if we are licensed to install 1,000,000 btuh boilers, 150Ton chillers, and all the associated controls... the 240Volt disconnect requires at a minimum a "connectors" license. and a permit for the work. I've worked under a limited electrical license, and the "connectors" license... I'm going for my unlimited license next month simply for the ability to work across state lines.
a trained service tech would have no problem connecting the high voltage for the condenser. most electricians would get confused with the control voltage we deal with every day.

[Florida Joy]

put it this way...
Plumbers are allowed to connect gas lines, and electrical lines on changeout jobs without either license... Plumbers are not even required to pull a permit to change an appliance like a water heater...
for some reason, HVAC technicians do not have the clout in the licensing board to allow us to perform the same tasks... even if we are licensed to install 1,000,000 btuh boilers, 150Ton chillers, and all the associated controls... the 240Volt disconnect requires at a minimum a "connectors" license. and a permit for the work. I've worked under a limited electrical license, and the "connectors" license... I'm going for my unlimited license next month simply for the ability to work across state lines.
a trained service tech would have no problem connecting the high voltage for the condenser. most electricians would get confused with the control voltage we deal with every day.

Where local or state regulators require EC licensing for HVAC electric, I would guess they have their reasons. If the HVAC guys want to do electrical in those states and not get fined or reprimanded, why not just do exactly what you plan to do... GET THE BLASTED LICENSE and protect your customers?

[second opinion]

Thanks. I googled this earlier this evening. Florda statute specifically excludes "electrical power wiring" from the AC contractor's license, be it a Class A, B, or C license. Doesn't seem to allow any exception for "whips from disconnect to condenser" and definitely doesn't allow wiring to/from the power distribution panel. Yet, A/C contractors apparently do it all the time. Buyer beware, for sure!

Interesting that I now have a third contractor under consideration as of this morning. He was totally upfront with me and said his quote would not include electric, as he is not licensed for electric. He does work with a certain electrical contractor and he said he would provide them the specs on the A/C job and have them call to set up an appointment to quote the required electrical work. Guess I'm getting old... this is exactly how I remember things being done in the 60's and 70's when I was new at home ownership and wanted to change or add central air.

I just went over the quote the non-EC contractor had emailed me one more time, word by word, and found something interesting. Although we had specifically discussed the code requirement to change aluminum wiring to copper from the panel to the air handler, and I have his answer to my email asking if he would (could) be doing that work (he said he could and would), nowhere in the proposal is any mention of changing the wiring from the panel to the airr handler!!!!!!!

I am really leary of dealing with the non-EC guy now!

Buyer beware has been my motto for over half a century!

A and B are allowed to disconnect and connect from the load side of the equipment disconnect but can not run wire from main panel to equipment disconnect as you need. This scenario is true for the majority of the US.

[Florida Joy]

A and B are allowed to disconnect and connect from the load side of the equipment disconnect but can not run wire from main panel to equipment disconnect as you need. This scenario is true for the majority of the US.

This is what I thought... he can unhook the old "pigtail" at the disconnect... hook up the new "pigtail" (whip?) and run it to the new condenser. The thing is, besides new copper wire from the panel to the air handler, my job will require replacing the disconnect and MOVING it somewhere else so it's no longer behind the new, taller, condenser between the condenser and the wall of my house, according to code. Actually, the ideal thing is to move the condenser further to the back of my house so it's no longer in front of a bedroom window, which involves running new wire from the panel, through my attic, through the soffit and down the exterior wall to the new disconnect. I've decided this is the way to go, so I'm pretty much not willing to have the AC guy with the B license do that work.

[Florida Joy]

Wouldn't actual replacement of the disconnect be outside the scope of a B HVAC license? I think of that work as similar to replacement of my breaker box inside the house... for which I had to hire a EC.

[udarrell]

No problem, not offended, just wondering what course of action you were recommending FOR ME.

And now I'm even more confused about your advice! It sounds like you don't mind ignoring code and doing the electrical yourself because residential is "simple" and you don't see the need to comply because, I guess, you know what your doing and can follow "code" and the electrical licensing requirement is.... not necessary for guys like you? And besides, everybody does it?

So are you saying if my AC guy "knows what he's doing", I shouldn't worry if he has the license required by Florida statute or not?

The permit inspector should be required to check the whip & even the breaker & conductor sizing & type from the main to the outdoor disconnect. Why would an inspector not be qualified to do at least that much in the name of safety?

What I am saying is that I & most HVAC contractors study the NEC & know how to select the appropriate whip & install it exactly as a licensed electrician would. That should be a part of the test to be an HVAC contractor & Tech.

There should be no need to spend extra money for an electrician to do that simple work, that would also have to be inspected & passed on.

I also read the linked code as saying that the HVAC contractor could install whips from the disconnect to the load; "if not prohibited by law" - the load would be the condensing unit.

In many states, if not most, there are NO inspectors working the rural areas & no permits issued because there is no one to do the inspection...IMO, this is a tragic situation...

Many states read different in respect to their HVAC codes...

[beenthere]

BMartin9000, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

Your post has been deleted.
Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

[Florida Joy]

What I am saying is that I & most HVAC contractors study the NEC & know how to select the appropriate whip & install it exactly as a licensed electrician would. That should be a part of the test to be an HVAC contractor & Tech.

There should be no need to spend extra money for an electrician to do that simple work, that would also have to be inspected & passed on.

I also read the linked code as saying that the HVAC contractor could install whips from the disconnect to the load; "if not prohibited by law" - the load would be the condensing unit.

I'd have no problem with my A/C guy doing that work... installing a whip from the disconnect... and having the HVAC inspector sighn off on that part of the job.

However, since my "system replacement" involves more than simply installing a new whip, I've decided it's in my best interest (buyer beware) to go with an HVAC contractor who understands the regulatory limitations on his license and insists on an EC doing the additional electrical AND pulling an EC permit AND getting an EC inspector to sign off on the electrical part of the job.

I don't want to be tied up in a legal battle if my house burns down and the insurance company won't pay because I decided to have unlicensed electric work done. I'd be chasing the HVAC contractor to recoup my losses and might have a hard time proving it was HIS fault that I allowed him to do work without a proper electrical perrmit.

Thanks for everyone chiming in on the discussion.... I think I understand the requirements and limitations in the state of Florida and have made my decision.

[vstech]

I agree, if new copper wiring is required from the panel to the disconnect, an electrical permit should be pulled to satisfy any insurance claims.

[Florida Joy]

I agree, if new copper wiring is required from the panel to the disconnect, an electrical permit should be pulled to satisfy any insurance claims.

Thank you!