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  1. #27
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    Jun 2005
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    SW Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    Forgive me... I don't want to be rude... but I don't see how this response has any bearing on my situation or helps to answer my question. Thanks anyway.
    Well, it was not actually meant for your situation, & no you shouldn't ask them about it, we already know what they'd say. We often cite examples; sorry I offended you.

    Concerning your situation, I pulled inspection permits on every job I did & I always run the new whip from the disconnect, never had a complaint by an inspector; every contractor I knew did it.

    Perhaps some codes don't allow it except by licensed electricians; as long as it's done in total accord with the code, I don't see the need for a code adding the expense of a sub to do it; it's very simple on residential jobs. IMO, the HVAC code inspector should be required to check the electrical as to code from the main breakers.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    6,004
    Quote Originally Posted by second opinion View Post
    Look at your Florida Code section 489.105 for Air conditioning contractors class A,B, and C.

    A and B can hook up to existing load side of disconnect but can not run from service panel to disconnect. C is service only
    DEFINITIONS


    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0489.105.html

    X
    BUYER BEWARE.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    Thanks. I googled this earlier this evening. Florda statute specifically excludes "electrical power wiring" from the AC contractor's license, be it a Class A, B, or C license. Doesn't seem to allow any exception for "whips from disconnect to condenser" and definitely doesn't allow wiring to/from the power distribution panel. Yet, A/C contractors apparently do it all the time. Buyer beware, for sure!

    Interesting that I now have a third contractor under consideration as of this morning. He was totally upfront with me and said his quote would not include electric, as he is not licensed for electric. He does work with a certain electrical contractor and he said he would provide them the specs on the A/C job and have them call to set up an appointment to quote the required electrical work. Guess I'm getting old... this is exactly how I remember things being done in the 60's and 70's when I was new at home ownership and wanted to change or add central air.

    I just went over the quote the non-EC contractor had emailed me one more time, word by word, and found something interesting. Although we had specifically discussed the code requirement to change aluminum wiring to copper from the panel to the air handler, and I have his answer to my email asking if he would (could) be doing that work (he said he could and would), nowhere in the proposal is any mention of changing the wiring from the panel to the airr handler!!!!!!!

    I am really leary of dealing with the non-EC guy now!

    Buyer beware has been my motto for over half a century!

  4. #30
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by udarrell View Post
    Well, it was not actually meant for your situation, & no you shouldn't ask them about it, we already know what they'd say. We often cite examples; sorry I offended you.

    Concerning your situation, I pulled inspection permits on every job I did & I always run the new whip from the disconnect, never had a complaint by an inspector; every contractor I knew did it.

    Perhaps some codes don't allow it except by licensed electricians; as long as it's done in total accord with the code, I don't see the need for a code adding the expense of a sub to do it; it's very simple on residential jobs. IMO, the HVAC code inspector should be required to check the electrical as to code from the main breakers.
    No problem, not offended, just wondering what course of action you were recommending FOR ME.

    And now I'm even more confused about your advice! It sounds like you don't mind ignoring code and doing the electrical yourself because residential is "simple" and you don't see the need to comply because, I guess, you know what your doing and can follow "code" and the electrical licensing requirement is.... not necessary for guys like you? And besides, everybody does it?

    So are you saying if my AC guy "knows what he's doing", I shouldn't worry if he has the license required by Florida statute or not?

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Mount Holly, NC
    Posts
    2,742
    put it this way...
    Plumbers are allowed to connect gas lines, and electrical lines on changeout jobs without either license... Plumbers are not even required to pull a permit to change an appliance like a water heater...
    for some reason, HVAC technicians do not have the clout in the licensing board to allow us to perform the same tasks... even if we are licensed to install 1,000,000 btuh boilers, 150Ton chillers, and all the associated controls... the 240Volt disconnect requires at a minimum a "connectors" license. and a permit for the work. I've worked under a limited electrical license, and the "connectors" license... I'm going for my unlimited license next month simply for the ability to work across state lines.
    a trained service tech would have no problem connecting the high voltage for the condenser. most electricians would get confused with the control voltage we deal with every day.
    The TRUE highest cost system is the system not installed properly...
    The three big summer hearththrobs...
    Mel Gibson
    Dwane Johnson
    The A/C repairman

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by vstech View Post
    put it this way...
    Plumbers are allowed to connect gas lines, and electrical lines on changeout jobs without either license... Plumbers are not even required to pull a permit to change an appliance like a water heater...
    for some reason, HVAC technicians do not have the clout in the licensing board to allow us to perform the same tasks... even if we are licensed to install 1,000,000 btuh boilers, 150Ton chillers, and all the associated controls... the 240Volt disconnect requires at a minimum a "connectors" license. and a permit for the work. I've worked under a limited electrical license, and the "connectors" license... I'm going for my unlimited license next month simply for the ability to work across state lines.
    a trained service tech would have no problem connecting the high voltage for the condenser. most electricians would get confused with the control voltage we deal with every day.
    Where local or state regulators require EC licensing for HVAC electric, I would guess they have their reasons. If the HVAC guys want to do electrical in those states and not get fined or reprimanded, why not just do exactly what you plan to do... GET THE BLASTED LICENSE and protect your customers?

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
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    5,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    Thanks. I googled this earlier this evening. Florda statute specifically excludes "electrical power wiring" from the AC contractor's license, be it a Class A, B, or C license. Doesn't seem to allow any exception for "whips from disconnect to condenser" and definitely doesn't allow wiring to/from the power distribution panel. Yet, A/C contractors apparently do it all the time. Buyer beware, for sure!

    Interesting that I now have a third contractor under consideration as of this morning. He was totally upfront with me and said his quote would not include electric, as he is not licensed for electric. He does work with a certain electrical contractor and he said he would provide them the specs on the A/C job and have them call to set up an appointment to quote the required electrical work. Guess I'm getting old... this is exactly how I remember things being done in the 60's and 70's when I was new at home ownership and wanted to change or add central air.

    I just went over the quote the non-EC contractor had emailed me one more time, word by word, and found something interesting. Although we had specifically discussed the code requirement to change aluminum wiring to copper from the panel to the air handler, and I have his answer to my email asking if he would (could) be doing that work (he said he could and would), nowhere in the proposal is any mention of changing the wiring from the panel to the airr handler!!!!!!!

    I am really leary of dealing with the non-EC guy now!

    Buyer beware has been my motto for over half a century!
    A and B are allowed to disconnect and connect from the load side of the equipment disconnect but can not run wire from main panel to equipment disconnect as you need. This scenario is true for the majority of the US.

  8. #34
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by second opinion View Post
    A and B are allowed to disconnect and connect from the load side of the equipment disconnect but can not run wire from main panel to equipment disconnect as you need. This scenario is true for the majority of the US.
    This is what I thought... he can unhook the old "pigtail" at the disconnect... hook up the new "pigtail" (whip?) and run it to the new condenser. The thing is, besides new copper wire from the panel to the air handler, my job will require replacing the disconnect and MOVING it somewhere else so it's no longer behind the new, taller, condenser between the condenser and the wall of my house, according to code. Actually, the ideal thing is to move the condenser further to the back of my house so it's no longer in front of a bedroom window, which involves running new wire from the panel, through my attic, through the soffit and down the exterior wall to the new disconnect. I've decided this is the way to go, so I'm pretty much not willing to have the AC guy with the B license do that work.

  9. #35
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    Aug 2012
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    Florida Space Coast
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    Wouldn't actual replacement of the disconnect be outside the scope of a B HVAC license? I think of that work as similar to replacement of my breaker box inside the house... for which I had to hire a EC.

  10. #36
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    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    No problem, not offended, just wondering what course of action you were recommending FOR ME.

    And now I'm even more confused about your advice! It sounds like you don't mind ignoring code and doing the electrical yourself because residential is "simple" and you don't see the need to comply because, I guess, you know what your doing and can follow "code" and the electrical licensing requirement is.... not necessary for guys like you? And besides, everybody does it?

    So are you saying if my AC guy "knows what he's doing", I shouldn't worry if he has the license required by Florida statute or not?
    The permit inspector should be required to check the whip & even the breaker & conductor sizing & type from the main to the outdoor disconnect. Why would an inspector not be qualified to do at least that much in the name of safety?

    What I am saying is that I & most HVAC contractors study the NEC & know how to select the appropriate whip & install it exactly as a licensed electrician would. That should be a part of the test to be an HVAC contractor & Tech.

    There should be no need to spend extra money for an electrician to do that simple work, that would also have to be inspected & passed on.

    I also read the linked code as saying that the HVAC contractor could install whips from the disconnect to the load; "if not prohibited by law" - the load would be the condensing unit.

    In many states, if not most, there are NO inspectors working the rural areas & no permits issued because there is no one to do the inspection...IMO, this is a tragic situation...

    Many states read different in respect to their HVAC codes...
    Last edited by udarrell; 08-14-2012 at 10:18 AM. Reason: "if not prohibited by law"

  11. #37
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    Jan 2004
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    Lancaster PA
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    66,831
    BMartin9000, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

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  12. #38
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    Aug 2012
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    Florida Space Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by udarrell View Post
    What I am saying is that I & most HVAC contractors study the NEC & know how to select the appropriate whip & install it exactly as a licensed electrician would. That should be a part of the test to be an HVAC contractor & Tech.

    There should be no need to spend extra money for an electrician to do that simple work, that would also have to be inspected & passed on.

    I also read the linked code as saying that the HVAC contractor could install whips from the disconnect to the load; "if not prohibited by law" - the load would be the condensing unit.
    I'd have no problem with my A/C guy doing that work... installing a whip from the disconnect... and having the HVAC inspector sighn off on that part of the job.

    However, since my "system replacement" involves more than simply installing a new whip, I've decided it's in my best interest (buyer beware) to go with an HVAC contractor who understands the regulatory limitations on his license and insists on an EC doing the additional electrical AND pulling an EC permit AND getting an EC inspector to sign off on the electrical part of the job.

    I don't want to be tied up in a legal battle if my house burns down and the insurance company won't pay because I decided to have unlicensed electric work done. I'd be chasing the HVAC contractor to recoup my losses and might have a hard time proving it was HIS fault that I allowed him to do work without a proper electrical perrmit.

    Thanks for everyone chiming in on the discussion.... I think I understand the requirements and limitations in the state of Florida and have made my decision.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Mount Holly, NC
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    I agree, if new copper wiring is required from the panel to the disconnect, an electrical permit should be pulled to satisfy any insurance claims.
    The TRUE highest cost system is the system not installed properly...
    The three big summer hearththrobs...
    Mel Gibson
    Dwane Johnson
    The A/C repairman

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