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  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Don't patronize me. I'm more than educated. From your comments you'd be way last in any of my attempts to gain understanding in these matters. You bought into the lie. Our economic problems don't lay with workers or our debt. It's a problem of loss of industrial productivity. Jobs and productivity change the equation. While taxing the rich won't buy us out of debt nether will cutting spending to the point the US is unrecognizable. Give Nobel Prize-winning ecomomist Joseph Stiglitz a shot. New book "The Price of Inequality". To help you with your education I'd suggest drinking from another well.

    I'm sorry, but you DO need an education, from someone other than Stiglitz. His credentials establish him firmly in the camp Of Global Socialist. Those ideas are great for enjoyment over a snifter of brandy after a night at the opera, but they do NOTHING to reconfirm a capitalist nation which has been slouching toward Gomorrah.

    You have to evaluate these guys by more than someone's willingness to confer a prize for their work. In fact, you start by considering WHO the prize committee has as its members.

    If you read what I wrote on this topic, we are not that far apart, but the worker culture and out debt are the two aspects of our problem that are under OUR control.

    Our productivity is UP, way up, thanks to technology. What we must HAVE is a place for low and semi skilled workers to go to work every day, and a welfare system that makes the work more profitable to the individual than sitting home watching TV.

    That is the way to success, if we don't collapse under our debt before we can do that.

    Out debt is not merely increasing, it is increasing geometrically, and at an alarming rate. We must stop it, NOW, or we will not look like the US. We will look like Greece.

    I will drink from the well of truth. Stay away from the Columbia U kool-aid.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
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  2. #15
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    Just an FYI:

    when I suggest that someone needs to educate themselves, I am not implying that they are "dumb" or some other pejorative.

    I'm always trying to learn more. For me, the economic direction of the US has been a topic of interest for me over several decades. My class at NYU used the Paul Samuelson model (Nobel, 1970). Smith and Keynes were of interest to me, as well, along with Marx, to see what the fuss was about.

    We cannot eliminate poverty or inequality; they are qualities of life among humans. Life cannot be made "fair."

    However, our government finances are like a big family budget. We must treat them as such.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  3. #16
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    for me the Unions have more political power than the Dem's or Repub's. In NYS no one gets elected to office without Union backing and guess what they want in return? Most of the state budget is Union pensions. Most of the pension goes to Government employees and the teachers unions.

    The other thing that no one seems to like to talk about is union coercion. Lets make no mistake, unions try (and succeed ) at forcing people into unions that really don't want to be in a union. I find that indefensible.
    I only drink a little, but when I do
    I turn into another person and THAT person drinks a lot

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I'm sorry, but you DO need an education, from someone other than Stiglitz. His credentials establish him firmly in the camp Of Global Socialist. Those ideas are great for enjoyment over a snifter of brandy after a night at the opera, but they do NOTHING to reconfirm a capitalist nation which has been slouching toward Gomorrah.

    Your education is questionable when your response to my post wasn't to challenge my points but to throw out an ad hominem witch in indefensible.
    We are not a capitalist nation as you state. We are a Democratic-Republic with a quasi capitalist economic system.
    While free range capitalism will destroy any in it's path it's also the essence of moral decline and your Gomorrah.



    You have to evaluate these guys by more than someone's willingness to confer a prize for their work. In fact, you start by considering WHO the prize committee has as its members.

    Another ad hominem. Attack the Nobel Committee rather than Stiglitz's argument.

    If you read what I wrote on this topic, we are not that far apart, but the worker culture and out debt are the two aspects of our problem that are under OUR control.

    Wrong again, we are worlds apart. All I see here is more regurgitation of blame the guy on the bottom. Go ahead and side with those creating the problem. Do you think we will all be saved by the blessings of the capitalists? I know capitalism is human nature and that's why it succeeds but if you don't cork the bottle they will drink it all.Our productivity is UP, way up, thanks to technology. What we must HAVE is a place for low and semi skilled workers to go to work every day, and a welfare system that makes the work more profitable to the individual than sitting home watching TV.

    That is the way to success, if we don't collapse under our debt before we can do that.

    Out debt is not merely increasing, it is increasing geometrically, and at an alarming rate. We must stop it, NOW, or we will not look like the US. We will look like Greece.

    I will drink from the well of truth. Stay away from the Columbia U kool-aid.
    Another ad hominem! An education from Columbia is not worthy????? You need to take some time and perhaps enroll Logic 101 and learn how to scoot around argumental fallacies. When you speak of "The well of truth" Who's exactly. To me it seems you've fallen into the quagmire of right wing talking points.
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

  5. #18
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    [QUOTE=timebuilder;13980441]Just an FYI:

    when I suggest that someone needs to educate themselves, I am not implying that they are "dumb" or some other pejorative.

    Truth is that's exactly what your doing as your saying your truth is truthier than mine and why can't I see that. The rights failure today aside from perhaps Pat Buchanan, is the inability to form a valid argument. But then an argument doesn't have to be true to be valid.
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

  6. #19
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    But then an argument doesn't have to be true to be valid.


    Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.....
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    for me the Unions have more political power than the Dem's or Repub's. In NYS no one gets elected to office without Union backing and guess what they want in return? Most of the state budget is Union pensions. Most of the pension goes to Government employees and the teachers unions.

    The other thing that no one seems to like to talk about is union coercion. Lets make no mistake, unions try (and succeed ) at forcing people into unions that really don't want to be in a union. I find that indefensible.

    You should really look at these issues as how the system works. IT's not left/right, Dem/Rep, Commie,Socialist, whatever, It's the acquisition and utilization of power. Who grabs it, gets it. No matter what comes out of their mouths. Idealism gets stranded in the Universities.
    Someone told me once, Those that demand perfection in the world end up drinking too much.
    Of course you might ask yourself, was the American middle class better off economically when Unions represented 18% rather than 7% of the workers?
    I don't know about Union coercion as I joined willingly and increased my income by 1/3.
    Someone's going to grab the power. Why not you?
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Another ad hominem! An education from Columbia is not worthy????? You need to take some time and perhaps enroll Logic 101 and learn how to scoot around argumental fallacies. When you speak of "The well of truth" Who's exactly. To me it seems you've fallen into the quagmire of right wing talking points.
    Is it an ad hominem against a goat to call it a goat?

    You crack me up.

    If a committee is biased against capitalism, and they award a prize for economics to a socialist, that is NOT an ad hominem. It is a basis for refutation based on prejudicial ideas. Prize awarding organizations are assumed to confer those honors based on merit in the general field, rather than on the agreement of the members with the tenets being espoused by the awardee. It does indeed call the validity of such a prize into question. You can almost track the constitution of the committees by the prize winning works. I think you will see some steep banks to the right as more socialist countries have to beg for bailouts.

    My prayer is that WE don't become one of them. November is probably our last chance to come to our senses.

    Let's say NAMBLA awards a "man of the year" prize to Jerry Sandusky. Is it an ad hominem to call that award into question, based on the membership of the award committee?

    Nope. Sorry.

    I don't have to define for you what a well of truth is. If you can't figure it out, then the loss is yours. I'd take time to explain it in ARP, but I rarely visit there. Too much of the same old stuff.

    If you don't know what is wrong with Columbia, then you should be welcome in Sean Penn's plane the next time he goes to visit a south American dictator. Columbia is a school run by the guys who ran the sit-ins when they occupied the offices there in the '60's. They have figured out the academic scam, and attract kids who have rarely if ever held a job that is productive. There are a few who are the exception, but mostly, they are brats, being taught by older brats. Now you can be a brat if you like, but trust me, brats are not highly regarded as ethical, hard working people, and so, THEIR wisdom is also suspect. When someone they disagree with arrives for a speech, do they offer up ideas and state their philosophical differences? No. They throw pies.

    What a bunch of highly educated morons.

    Your recommended author IS a Global Socialist, and therefore, his ideas are worthless to us. That's nothing against him, but only a fool will follow a socialist economist, because socialism is a disproved theory, and has never worked without nearby capitalist markets generated in other countries to support it.

    Maybe the Greeks will hail his work as important.

    As for me, I am not concerned.

    America IS a capitalist society. Our form of government is a Representative Republic. It is not defined by party. Our founders created the basis for conservatism: freedom and liberty. A "bottom up" rather than a "top down" approach to government.

    Socialism, with its false ideas about knowing better than the individual about what is good for him, is only possible when liberty and freedom are reduced or eliminated. Socialism and liberty are diametric opposites.

    It is distressing indeed to find young people who think they know it all, because they have embraced the arrogance of the left...
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
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  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    You should really look at these issues as how the system works. IT's not left/right, Dem/Rep, Commie,Socialist, whatever, It's the acquisition and utilization of power. Who grabs it, gets it. No matter what comes out of their mouths. Idealism gets stranded in the Universities.
    Someone told me once, Those that demand perfection in the world end up drinking too much.
    Of course you might ask yourself, was the American middle class better off economically when Unions represented 18% rather than 7% of the workers?
    I don't know about Union coercion as I joined willingly and increased my income by 1/3.
    Someone's going to grab the power. Why not you?
    you may have willingly joined a union. But there are hundreds of thousands of people who are forced to join a Union when they don't want to. The ones that don't want a union are harrassed, threatened and many times beaten into joining a union.

    Unions are the epitome of corruption and greed and the pursuit of power

    http://nlpc.org/union-corruption-update
    I only drink a little, but when I do
    I turn into another person and THAT person drinks a lot

  10. #23
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    I think it's funny when someone says anything bad about unions, folks get all defensive, like you're complaining about the little guy at the end of the line putting the parts together. A lot of good things have been done by unions in the past, but there has to be limits, somethings got to give. The unions(generally speaking) aren't about helping make sure the little guy any more, it's about power, that's why they get so much support from left leaning politicians, they take care of each other.
    I talked in another thread about the US postal service being broke,,, how can they be broke?? All they do is deliver mail!! They don't have a lot of overhead,, their main issue is overpaid employees, that have outrageous retirement benefits, that they themselves contributed very little to. We're gonna have to pay it, the one's out here struggling to feed our families now,, their retirement setup is like a pyramid scheme, they need 10 employees paying in to cover the cost of 1 retiree,, It's not sustainable, and most public sector unions are like this,, they've got us by the short hairs,

    Employment should be based on merit, if you earn it, you get it. What guarantees do we have that unions ensure quality product?? Definitely not from the teachers union..

  11. #24
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    A democratic/republic has nothing with democrats or republicans. It defines a government elected by popular vote (Democratic) but ruled by representatives (Republic) This description might not be text book but I don't care for the copy/paste responses.
    For an argument to be valid the points need to be argued not the source. If the premise is valid the source doesn't matter.
    Seems your stuck in the mud. How can you group everyone at Columbia are "highly educated morons" ?????
    I hope your not including me in this quote"It is distressing indeed to find young people who think they know it all, because they have embraced the arrogance of the left... " because I'm a lot older than you. All your posts have revieled is personal arrogance along with your "Well of truth"
    See ya bye, I know a lost cause when I see one.
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    you may have willingly joined a union. But there are hundreds of thousands of people who are forced to join a Union when they don't want to. The ones that don't want a union are harrassed, threatened and many times beaten into joining a union.

    Unions are the epitome of corruption and greed and the pursuit of power

    http://nlpc.org/union-corruption-update

    Replace your word "Unions" and you've described the state of the USA both politically and economicly.
    You've also discribed an economic struggle that for the most part in old history. I don't know about PS unions but trade unions rarely fit your discription today.
    Can I sign you up now?
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    But then an argument doesn't have to be true to be valid.


    Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.....
    Ya, strange but true. Truth and validity don't always agree. Validity follows rules of logic but truth results from thesis, testing etc, etc. Just a dig at Timebuilders fallacies.
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

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