Pricing our labor out of the marketplace

[timebuilder]

Another ad hominem! An education from Columbia is not worthy????? You need to take some time and perhaps enroll Logic 101 and learn how to scoot around argumental fallacies. When you speak of "The well of truth" Who's exactly. To me it seems you've fallen into the quagmire of right wing talking points.

Is it an ad hominem against a goat to call it a goat?

You crack me up.

If a committee is biased against capitalism, and they award a prize for economics to a socialist, that is NOT an ad hominem. It is a basis for refutation based on prejudicial ideas. Prize awarding organizations are assumed to confer those honors based on merit in the general field, rather than on the agreement of the members with the tenets being espoused by the awardee. It does indeed call the validity of such a prize into question. You can almost track the constitution of the committees by the prize winning works. I think you will see some steep banks to the right as more socialist countries have to beg for bailouts.

My prayer is that WE don't become one of them. November is probably our last chance to come to our senses.

Let's say NAMBLA awards a "man of the year" prize to Jerry Sandusky. Is it an ad hominem to call that award into question, based on the membership of the award committee?

Nope. Sorry.

I don't have to define for you what a well of truth is. If you can't figure it out, then the loss is yours. I'd take time to explain it in ARP, but I rarely visit there. Too much of the same old stuff.

If you don't know what is wrong with Columbia, then you should be welcome in Sean Penn's plane the next time he goes to visit a south American dictator. Columbia is a school run by the guys who ran the sit-ins when they occupied the offices there in the '60's. They have figured out the academic scam, and attract kids who have rarely if ever held a job that is productive. There are a few who are the exception, but mostly, they are brats, being taught by older brats. Now you can be a brat if you like, but trust me, brats are not highly regarded as ethical, hard working people, and so, THEIR wisdom is also suspect. When someone they disagree with arrives for a speech, do they offer up ideas and state their philosophical differences? No. They throw pies.

What a bunch of highly educated morons.

Your recommended author IS a Global Socialist, and therefore, his ideas are worthless to us. That's nothing against him, but only a fool will follow a socialist economist, because socialism is a disproved theory, and has never worked without nearby capitalist markets generated in other countries to support it.

Maybe the Greeks will hail his work as important.

As for me, I am not concerned.

America IS a capitalist society. Our form of government is a Representative Republic. It is not defined by party. Our founders created the basis for conservatism: freedom and liberty. A "bottom up" rather than a "top down" approach to government.

Socialism, with its false ideas about knowing better than the individual about what is good for him, is only possible when liberty and freedom are reduced or eliminated. Socialism and liberty are diametric opposites.

It is distressing indeed to find young people who think they know it all, because they have embraced the arrogance of the left...

[jmac00]

You should really look at these issues as how the system works. IT's not left/right, Dem/Rep, Commie,Socialist, whatever, It's the acquisition and utilization of power. Who grabs it, gets it. No matter what comes out of their mouths. Idealism gets stranded in the Universities.
Someone told me once, Those that demand perfection in the world end up drinking too much.
Of course you might ask yourself, was the American middle class better off economically when Unions represented 18% rather than 7% of the workers?
I don't know about Union coercion as I joined willingly and increased my income by 1/3.
Someone's going to grab the power. Why not you?

you may have willingly joined a union. But there are hundreds of thousands of people who are forced to join a Union when they don't want to. The ones that don't want a union are harrassed, threatened and many times beaten into joining a union.

Unions are the epitome of corruption and greed and the pursuit of power

http://nlpc.org/union-corruption-update

[texasgentleman2]

I think it's funny when someone says anything bad about unions, folks get all defensive, like you're complaining about the little guy at the end of the line putting the parts together. A lot of good things have been done by unions in the past, but there has to be limits, somethings got to give. The unions(generally speaking) aren't about helping make sure the little guy any more, it's about power, that's why they get so much support from left leaning politicians, they take care of each other.
I talked in another thread about the US postal service being broke,,, how can they be broke?? All they do is deliver mail!! They don't have a lot of overhead,, their main issue is overpaid employees, that have outrageous retirement benefits, that they themselves contributed very little to. We're gonna have to pay it, the one's out here struggling to feed our families now,, their retirement setup is like a pyramid scheme, they need 10 employees paying in to cover the cost of 1 retiree,, It's not sustainable, and most public sector unions are like this,, they've got us by the short hairs,

Employment should be based on merit, if you earn it, you get it. What guarantees do we have that unions ensure quality product?? Definitely not from the teachers union..

[hvacker]

A democratic/republic has nothing with democrats or republicans. It defines a government elected by popular vote (Democratic) but ruled by representatives (Republic) This description might not be text book but I don't care for the copy/paste responses.
For an argument to be valid the points need to be argued not the source. If the premise is valid the source doesn't matter.
Seems your stuck in the mud. How can you group everyone at Columbia are "highly educated morons" ?????
I hope your not including me in this quote"It is distressing indeed to find young people who think they know it all, because they have embraced the arrogance of the left... " because I'm a lot older than you. All your posts have revieled is personal arrogance along with your "Well of truth"
See ya bye, I know a lost cause when I see one.

[hvacker]

you may have willingly joined a union. But there are hundreds of thousands of people who are forced to join a Union when they don't want to. The ones that don't want a union are harrassed, threatened and many times beaten into joining a union.

Unions are the epitome of corruption and greed and the pursuit of power

http://nlpc.org/union-corruption-update

Replace your word "Unions" and you've described the state of the USA both politically and economicly.
You've also discribed an economic struggle that for the most part in old history. I don't know about PS unions but trade unions rarely fit your discription today.
Can I sign you up now?

[hvacker]

But then an argument doesn't have to be true to be valid.


Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.....

Ya, strange but true. Truth and validity don't always agree. Validity follows rules of logic but truth results from thesis, testing etc, etc. Just a dig at Timebuilders fallacies.

[metalman1]

I agree with you zw17. I am a 17 year union firefighter in Oklahoma and a Licensed HVAC contractor. I have negotiated 15 years with the city. When they don't want to pay $$$ they offer time off and other "free" benefits. Now new admin asks why we get so much vacation. The general public's knowledge of unions comes from the tea party. And the tea baggers are wrong.

[jrath66]

I like to know the best ways to cut corners in pricing out a job or advertising a furnace check up without losing quality?When facing a another company with the same training and experience. Would it be the designed speedy inside outside check list that is detailed yet easy to fill out or maybe digital check list/invoice. Without check list there comes a higher possibility of failing to check a component. Whats good ways to cut time on a job.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[bigtime]

I agree with you zw17. I am a 17 year union firefighter in Oklahoma and a Licensed HVAC contractor. I have negotiated 15 years with the city. When they don't want to pay $$$ they offer time off and other "free" benefits. Now new admin asks why we get so much vacation. The general public's knowledge of unions comes from the tea party. And the tea baggers are wrong.

So quit your firefighter job. When enough of yoos guys quit, they will know theyre not paying enough. Has anyone quit lately?

[jmac00]

Replace your word "Unions" and you've described the state of the USA both politically and economicly.
You've also discribed an economic struggle that for the most part in old history. I don't know about PS unions but trade unions rarely fit your discription today.
Can I sign you up now?

not a chance, You couldn't pay me enough to be controlled by some half wit dumbass taking bribes and screwing all the members. I was in a Union for over two years and all I saw was corruption and gross stupidity.

These jerkweeds actually voted themselves out of business. Me and another guy tried to explain how business works and why they will put themselves out of business if they go on strike. My tires where slashed, my buddies windshield was busted, they went on strike and a week later the owner closed the doors and walked away.....

freaking idiots, unions have out lived there usefulness

[hvacker]

not a chance, You couldn't pay me enough to be controlled by some half wit dumbass taking bribes and screwing all the members. I was in a Union for over two years and all I saw was corruption and gross stupidity.

These jerkweeds actually voted themselves out of business. Me and another guy tried to explain how business works and why they will put themselves out of business if they go on strike. My tires where slashed, my buddies windshield was busted, they went on strike and a week later the owner closed the doors and walked away.....

freaking idiots, unions have out lived there usefulness

It's unfortunate you had a bad experience. There have been those that have been overzealous in protecting their turf. I just experienced overzealous 2nd ammendment advocates at our village counsul meeting. I think some of them were also in a tire slashing mood. The counsul thought they might want to limit open carry in village gov buildings.
As to unions outliving their usefullness sounds like worker representation also outliving it's usefullness.
I'd agree many tactics beginning when organized crime moved into many unions didn't represent unions best interests but things change. I've seen huge changes over a lot of years espicially contractor/union parternerships.
I doubt without a bottle of single malt I'd change your mind anyway.

[Freightshaker]

The problem I see with unions is the bickering between. Also throwing up a stink over a nonunion company. We recently had a job installing coolers and freezers with a large chain store. Everything is going great and then they bring in a nonunion plumber for some little BS job and one of our new construction fitters throws a fit. Guess what we did not get the next few stores over that. Guys have to remember... Showing the consumer through quality workmanship is how we keep customers coming back. After all this is America and choosing union or nonunion is the customers decision. Arguing and boycotting are just about useless in today's world.
The service side of our company works together well unlike our new construction side. If a service guy finds a bad disconnect on a package unit we change it. Our electricians don't want us to bother them with something that small. Now if we get into wire pulling or something more heck yea we call them. Try that on our new construction side and it's world war 3. I just don't see things working well unless we work together better.

[Tommy knocker]

No denying the good unions have done in the past. However in my opinion the company store of the past has been replaced with the union it's self. You have to pay to work. You are expected to tow the democrat line or be shouted down for disagreeing. If the union backs a candidate you disagree with too bad. Shut up and pay or find another job. Not vested yet? Too bad get out and they keep what you have paid into retirement It's all upside down and backwards from what it was started as and was intended to be. As long as they spend most of their money, time, and effort backing a political party instead of simply standing between employer and employee they will continue to fade into obscurity. If any of you doubt what I have said go to your next union meeting stand up and proclaim that you cannot support a candidate who supports partial birth abortion so you are voting republican.

[zw17]

I agree with you zw17. I am a 17 year union firefighter in Oklahoma and a Licensed HVAC contractor. I have negotiated 15 years with the city. When they don't want to pay $$$ they offer time off and other "free" benefits. Now new admin asks why we get so much vacation. The general public's knowledge of unions comes from the tea party. And the tea baggers are wrong.

Ha, I am a union HVAC tech and a volunteer firefighter...

Small world.

[jmac00]

The general public's knowledge of unions comes from the tea party. And the tea baggers are wrong.

thats crap and you know it, Unions are there own worse enemy and with statements like this, it doesn't help your cause.

I was in a union, (it sucked) I have worked with union people (they sucked, especially masons, pipe fitters on the other hand do outstanding work) I don't care for the attitude or the complaining, constant, non-stop complaining.....sheesh do the damn job and STFU

[zw17]

thats crap and you know it

I don't know about that...

I would say 99% of the people I talk to about unions have zero idea of how they work, why/how they still exist, or what role they play in today's economy.

Many people cite what they have heard in the news about unions, very very very few know the inner workings of a union.

[hvacker]

I think it's interesting that Americans will complain about our government but still embrace it. Governments are people, not some imaginary entity. Unions are also people. Americans are very lucky our laws allow us to organize and bargain. Many things have been gained like the 40 hour work week, minimum wages, safety and others. There is a lot of money being spent to discredit Unions but I know the overall good exceeds all the bad press. The Unions set the bar all workers benefit from.
So like our government I'm willing to work past any wrongs that might happen when humans are involved because I'm better off with worker representation than being thrown to the wolves.
Like most things, want a better Union? Get involved.

[flange]

many forget that the american economy itself is based upon continual growth at a mid single digit rate. ALL of the current ptograms use financial modeling based upon this principle. In discussing pension plans particularly, many of the posters are underinformed. you see, ERISA guidelines dictate funding levels of pension plans essentially limiting the "unfunded liability". these federal laws were put in place to protect workers. so, if you contribute monies for retirement, once vested, a certain amount must be there, or the plan goes into red status. there is also proviso for benefit levels to be INCREASED when the plan is too solvent. in other words, too much money in the bank. both aspects are good, however treatment of them was generally bad.

here is why: many, many plans at one time or another went to both extremes. when they were doing too well, the politicians OR ceo's made less contribution than was required. they then used the finances to either leverage more public work in municipalities, or to write bigger bonus checks to ceo's and their pals in private sector. this is what killed a lot of the plans. before you debate it, do the work, its out there. so, the plans in good times didnt get full contributions. then when bad times hit, the safety net is smaller, sending the plans into red status, which occurred to many plans nationwide.

the choice then becomes, do we raise contributions, or lower benefits levels??? many union plans choose to raise contributions, then find out that when the economy gets healthy again, they MUST raise benefits. Its a vicious cycle, caused by cheats who ABUSED the plans under the guise of following ERISA guidelines.

the easy analogy is that if you get more than x amount in your household bank account, the government forces you to spend more money each month, then when times get tight, you have to take money out of the bank to pay those extra bills. I dont care if you are union or not, thats how it works. The same is true of social security. the money WE PAY into social security has been raided for years for the same reasons.

I could write for days on this topic, but wont.

[toyo066]

Wait???? People should work instead of taking handouts??? Can that be true???

Not in this Country. You sadly are mistaking sir.