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  1. #1
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    Pricing our labor out of the marketplace

    Timebuilder, You keep bringing up that unions are the problem. I'm not going to agree or disagree with that thought. IMO there's alot more to it. The poor people in China, Japan, Korea, fill in the blank, are exactly that. Poor. I believe this is why the asian countries put so much focus on education. The women are oppressed, and without an education, asian people work low paying jobs on farms or in manufacturing. Why? Because if they didn't, they would starve to death. Not true here in the US. Our poor eat, have educational opportunities, have free rent, drive cars, have cell phones etc. Our teenagers from middle class or affluent backgrounds are just too good to work for peanuts. Both of these are social failures our society has accepted. There is no doubt in my mind we are able to compete with the Chinese. It will never happen though, because the welfare state has destroyed that. We have become complacent. We have a huge unskilled labor pool that is untapped and never will be. If a person can make more in gubmint benefits than working 40 hrs a week well... When the gubmint gets out of the charity business and leave that to the church, the US will be a better place. My ex wife of 17 years has collected a check and then some since our divorce because she's "bi polar". In laymans terms, she's a lazy alcoholic. We have to stop making it so easy on everyone. It's the same arguement they have always used in defense of the illegals. They take the jobs no one else wants. Why would anyone work if they can live for free?
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  2. #2
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    Very well said, 2sac. I recently read a book written by Henry Ford nearly 100 years ago. In it he warned of how government welfare and unions would ruin this country and wipe out people's motivation to work hard. He fought against the unions with everything he had. He did not believe everyone should get paid the same. He believed in paying people what they were worth (actually he was happy to pay them what everybody else thought was more than they were worth), but if an employee couldn't cut it, Mr. Ford would try to move the employee to an easier task and pay him less. If someone worked hard, he could get promoted and paid more.

    I am a proud union pipefitter. I like to believe that my union has some things going for it that makes it better/more fair for both the employee and the business owner than many of the other big unions out there (such as the UAW and most government unions) . One thing is that the pay and benefits are a minimum starting point. If you think you are worth more, you can negotiate higher pay/benefits with your employer. Another good thing, is there are no seniority rules. An employer can fire or lay off anyone they want. I believe these two things keep people like me constantly striving to be better to either hang onto the job, or advance and get more pay. Once you get into the union, you have the same motivation force as a non-union employee, which provides for healthy competition between the 2 sectors.

    I don't know what the answer is. I know there are pros and cons to unions, just like there are pros and cons to manufacturing stuff in the USA vs. China. I agree that there should be less welfare and entitlement programs and more motivation for people to work hard and EARN a living.

  3. #3
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    Excellent thread. It's not the unions that are killing us, it's the entitlements and the fact that we want to appease everybody. That will be the ultimate demise of this country. We've lost the spirit that made this country great. This country has no balls.

  4. #4
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    Can you find for me the part where I said "the unions are the problem?" I don't think I have EVER said that.

    I DO say that public sector unions have negotiated essentially unopposed for the past 40 years, and they have agreements and pensions that no city in the US can afford to pay. Now, even medium sized towns are starting to go broke, because of these costs, which are referred to euphemistically as "legacy costs."

    Some Asian people ARE poor, but only by OUR standards. Not by THEIR standards. To them, they are the most prosperous people in the history of their family. Women are not "oppressed," but they do have a palace in Asian society that Eastern women CALL oppression.

    Their perspective will not change for several generations. We can't wait that long.

    We have to adapt to a culture that is comfortable with ALL of the things you pointed out.

    We had better start to adapt, using the points I mentioned, and fast.

    Schwinn's union was not the problem.

    What they wanted WAS the problem, for Schwinn.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  5. #5
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    I apologize. I mistook your comments for those that someone else made.
    Officially, Down for the count

    YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET

    I know enough to know, I don't know enough
    Liberalism-Ideas so good they mandate them

  6. #6
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    Feb 2007
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    Wait???? People should work instead of taking handouts??? Can that be true???
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post

    I DO say that public sector unions have negotiated essentially unopposed for the past 40 years, and they have agreements and pensions that no city in the US can afford to pay.
    Why do you blame the unions?

    There are politicians and managers that agreed to those contracts. Maybe you should lay the blame on them, after all they are the ones that were voted in to represent you.

    Public union contracts are a two way street.

    Don't even get me started on the fact that many of these pensions were dipped into by the cities and states to help pay other bills with the promise of paybacks that never happened.

    Just like the OP said, unions are a small, no very small, slice of the pie when you start looking at .gov handouts.

    I swear some of you hate the working union man worse than you hate the welfare leaches.

  8. #8
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    North Plainfield ,NJ
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    I feel we have reached this position because....
    Political positions became paid. Some parents abused punishment therefore forming a weak generation physically,mentally with the working habits and sense of values. This country has let economics verse business in the political work. They are suppose to work together but this economy has become a chess game that got over complicated and out of control.
    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  9. #9
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    The American understanding about Unions is the result of fortunes spent on a process of eliminating them. To the die hard capitalist such things as Unions, minimum wage, and voters are simply problems that need to be eliminated.
    If one cares to revisit history and spend some time with the railroad barons, steel and industrial giants of the past one can see where they would take us if Americans give the country back to them. Every Time I here the screams from them to get rid of regulations I can see the results if that comes to pass. Even recent history of cutting regulations leading to a large part of the current problems I still hear them wanting less regs even more.
    The change I would like might be for public sector Unions to be more like trade unions but that's based on my limited understanding of the PS Unions. To blame those on the bottom is falling into the trap set to change the focus on who's to blame. Blame goes downhill in most people's thinking. Don't fall for it. Jobs get shipped out of the country then the idea to blame those without jobs is ridiculous. Those involved with the problem of unemployment have said almost all would much rather have a job and a future than sit home w/o a job or future.
    Welfare leaches are another attempt to dehumanize those that are simply the victims of an out of balance economic system that never intended to "trickle down"
    Who's to blame? Follow the money. They created the economy, for better or worse. Anyone can become a victim.
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

  10. #10
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    I agree the blame starts at the top, but how long can one be a victim? Generations?
    Officially, Down for the count

    YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET

    I know enough to know, I don't know enough
    Liberalism-Ideas so good they mandate them

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zw17 View Post
    Why do you blame the unions?

    There are politicians and managers that agreed to those contracts. Maybe you should lay the blame on them, after all they are the ones that were voted in to represent you.
    It's of a case of foxes keeping the foxes out of the henhouse.

    The unions "negotiated" things that any sane person KNEW were not sustainable in the FUTURE. That future is TODAY. They negotiated with democrat mayors for very close to the entire time that this was building to a head.

    So, the union bosses have retired or died, and so have those democrat mayors and councilmen and solicitors.

    Now, those cities and towns are headed toward bankruptcy. We can't pay all those pensions from taxes coming from guys like me. In my little town, we used to make all kinds of stuff. Mrs. Smith's Pies, Stanley Flagg pipe fittings, Dutch Boy Paint, Bethlehem Steel Bridges, and the world's leading tapping machines, originated by my Great Grandfather.

    Now, it's all gone.

    Where is the money going to come from?

    Let's say we decide to REALLY "tax the rich."

    In fact, let's say we can take ALL of their money. That's right, take ALL of the money from every millionaire in America.

    Is there enough to stop our slide toward Greece? Nope. It isn't even enough to make a dent.

    So, when someone who is running for a second terms starts saying that he will make the rich "pay their fair share," remember, ALL of the money that the "rich" have is not enough.

    In fact, it's a drop in the bucket.

    That man's vision of fairness means that YOU, the middle class guy, are too well off, and WE working guys will have to scale back so our welfare recipients can be treated more fairly.

    No s**t, that is his vision, and the vision of his communist mentor, and his domestic terrorist friend Bill Ayres, and his buddy, the Reverend Wright.

    The "rich" are just a straw man. It's YOU, the middle class guy that he has in his sites, because he KNOWS he can only tax the rich to a certain point, and they they leave, just like they are now leaving France.

    Quote Originally Posted by zw17 View Post
    Public union contracts are a two way street.
    With the same people at each end of that street.

    Quote Originally Posted by zw17 View Post
    Don't even get me started on the fact that many of these pensions were dipped into by the cities and states to help pay other bills with the promise of paybacks that never happened.
    Same as social security. The Congress was run by the dems for 40 years, folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by zw17 View Post
    Just like the OP said, unions are a small, no very small, slice of the pie when you start looking at .gov handouts.
    Not in terms of public pensions. That's a HUGE piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by zw17 View Post
    I swear some of you hate the working union man worse than you hate the welfare leaches.
    No, I just hate lying sacks of excrement.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    The American understanding about Unions is the result of fortunes spent on a process of eliminating them. To the die hard capitalist such things as Unions, minimum wage, and voters are simply problems that need to be eliminated.
    If one cares to revisit history and spend some time with the railroad barons, steel and industrial giants of the past one can see where they would take us if Americans give the country back to them. Every Time I here the screams from them to get rid of regulations I can see the results if that comes to pass. Even recent history of cutting regulations leading to a large part of the current problems I still hear them wanting less regs even more.
    The change I would like might be for public sector Unions to be more like trade unions but that's based on my limited understanding of the PS Unions. To blame those on the bottom is falling into the trap set to change the focus on who's to blame. Blame goes downhill in most people's thinking. Don't fall for it. Jobs get shipped out of the country then the idea to blame those without jobs is ridiculous. Those involved with the problem of unemployment have said almost all would much rather have a job and a future than sit home w/o a job or future.
    Welfare leaches are another attempt to dehumanize those that are simply the victims of an out of balance economic system that never intended to "trickle down"
    Who's to blame? Follow the money. They created the economy, for better or worse. Anyone can become a victim.

    Do yourself a favor.

    Educate yourself on these matters.

    Please.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Do yourself a favor.

    Educate yourself on these matters.

    Please.
    Don't patronize me. I'm more than educated. From your comments you'd be way last in any of my attempts to gain understanding in these matters. You bought into the lie. Our economic problems don't lay with workers or our debt. It's a problem of loss of industrial productivity. Jobs and productivity change the equation. While taxing the rich won't buy us out of debt nether will cutting spending to the point the US is unrecognizable. Give Nobel Prize-winning ecomomist Joseph Stiglitz a shot. New book "The Price of Inequality". To help you with your education I'd suggest drinking from another well.
    "What Fools these mortals be"....Puck

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