ReplyBeen hitting the sauce a bit today eh?
Professional Member*
Instead of sizing the A/C and heat to the house how about designing the house to work with the HVAC? How about a building code that limits HVAC units to a certain size per sq ft and have the builder/insulator design/fix the house so that it will cool properly? Let the builder decide if they would rather get rid of the black roof, huge west windows, or insulate more/seal properly. This also would force the units to be installed properly instead of oversizing to cover up installation problems. For the heat side the furnace will almost always be oversized just to get the blower capacity needed. I've never seen a situation where the the house cooled fine but the furnace couldn't handle the heating load.
In our area the limit could be something like this:
New construction: 1,000 sqft per ton (this isn't unreasonable in our area for properly insulated/sealed house)
Existing homes built after 1990: 800sqft per ton
Homes built 1970 - 1990: 650 sq ft per ton
Homes pre-1970: 500sq ft per ton.
Lets start fixing houses and correcting installation issues instead of just sticking in a bigger A/C to cool things off.
Professional Member*
Been hitting the sauce a bit today eh?
Professional Member*
My neck of the woods they are pushing blower door tests on every new house with a % leak allowed, duct blast minimum on remo and c/o
Professional Member
At this point you would have to get involved with a "green" builder to go in that direction.Originally Posted by 54regcab
Maybe now that the upper middle class has had their collective ass handed to them the tide will turn away from McMansions toward more sensible homes.
Professional Member
Because some people want black roofs and huge west windows?
Professional Member*
Why not require the HVAC conractor & building contractor make the system work with the house. In other words the building contractor has to provide enoough room to get properly sized duct to all areas of the house after the HVAC contractor has designed a duct system that will actually work.
Professional Member*
I think it's a great idea. Look at refrigeration as an example. You get a service call on a refrigerator that has cooling problems, condensate, won't stop running etc...., you don't recommend they replace the condenser, compressor & evap coil with larger ones; you replace the door gaskets! Also, some of the most cost effective ways to deliver comfort to a home is to air seal & resolve insulation issues. There are some companies out there that have sucessfully changed their business model to include this "whole house" approach to comfort & energy use, and some of those pro's are members of this site.
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
Professional Member*
That is a great idea, but this is for the time being at lest America a free country! If you want lots of glass you can have it, if you don't mind paying the power company every month go for it. Same goes if I want a 68 Chevelle that gets 4 miles to a gallon I can and that is why I love America. What would help more than regulations is to have craftsman in the trade and get rid of HACKS!
Professional Member*
Here is the problem: the builder would say they are installing great windows, great insulation, and we put in our smaller unit. Then our system doesn't cool---we go out to find windows that have a different NFRC rating than design, less insulation than designed, or spotty insulation (which why put any in at all if you aren't going to do it right..but that's a whole different thread). We tell the homeowner, they don't believe us. The house isn't cooling so it MUST be the air conditioners fault.
Oh wait...that already happens.
Membership Chair/ARP Committee / Professional Member*
Are you effin kidding me!
If I want to build and live in a house that requires 500K BTU's to heat and 30 tons of A/C to cool - how is that anybody's business but mine?
OK: Don't let the builders cheat people or build unsafe houses. But past that, and especially if I build my Own House - hands off: mind your own business. I'll run my own life. Thanks, but no thanks.
PHM
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PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
Professional Member*
I'm all for more of these darn people to quit telling us how we live, think, eat, drink, breathe, and do with what is suppose to be ours.
We've been invaded enough.
Professional Member*
Good idea, why have the government involved at all? Let private utility companies provide incentives for downsizing equipment and reducing peak energy demand if it is in their best interest to do so. Let lenders determine if a house is built well enough for them to write a mortgage on it. Why require expensive licensing for the HVAC trade? Customers hire based on price and/or contractor reputation, not if they paid their license fees to the state every year. If a customer is gonna hire a hack, a state license requirement doesn't protect them. Let consumer demand and private industry regulate instead of the government. We all know how well the government runs anything they touch..
Yeah, I'm a Libertarian
Professional Member*
This is turning into an ARP thread.
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
Professional Member*
This reminds me of that site where I was pitched out for my great grammar and listing the simple un-need at times for manual J, others screamed for, at green advisers council... site of builders and GT 'PROS'.
Chilled/Heated piped waters to fcoils like Mini's or not...
GreenBAs-Site/gBT Referencing "a smaller home" to me , I dared to ask the site owner what is a (judgementalist's) "small home" for the greenies...?
WOW! Was I ever put in my place by the long credentials and studiests who determined 2300 sq ft was small and very greenie-able. ? -Are only 2 kids is enough for your family too (!)
So I liking to air-about dual compressors and jan'13 rated variable gt said:
since it is 3 staged plus a 4th supplemental heat with duals for over 30 years OEM, and now only a couple Variable Compressor sizes in GT rated systems to having a similar 3-staging res method of control,,, does it not overlap margins of in/as a L O A D - M A T C H I N G system ?
Is it not such previous sizing commentary is finished at knowing it is either a 2.1/2 real compressor in box TONS or just one other choice: a 4.0 variable (replacing proven dual compressor 3-staging. the 4.0 t- with rated 49k output 32ew 11 to 12 gpm etc...18% Meth , etc.)
and I meant "knowing" not in a court venue, but mindful trial and accounting just two ways:
uh, 2.1/2 is x 440 the 1100 cfm, k? and 4 at 1760 cfm...k?
which one for the greeenies house fits a volume of 8.1/2 h x 2300 sqft given as living space and only using 1/2 the basement if living/rec etc by air volume in mind/// resulting in 3 - to -3.1/2 air changes through the system, roughly... per hour of highest speed operation? :
3000 liv sq ft then for the 2300 sq ft yields x 3.1/2 vol-changes/hr that number is about 1500 cfm for a ungreen standard 1990's construction-
And with super insulated greenies-built to only about 1200 cfm then needed.
~~~ roughly if NOT by Btu-hrs, not just to worry-some detail because of a supplemental 5kw- 10kw strip or other back up tha can make up small differences .
The 2.1/2 fit WPirate's 85% (and premier contractors since the 80's northern states 85-90%) heat sizing and matches
that 2300/3000 calc living space perfectly-well-enough (-pwe, wet finger in the breeze technology) for seen air rotations through systems that have low ceiling to floor dT's of 2 to 1 degrees , measured many times: 3 to 3.1/2 air change rotations per hour -- high speed.
And since it is offered in water-zoning from a F-Air system in one, a little- mini-like f-coil planning is just too practical. HVAC and Zoned chiller/"boiler' with DeSuperheater OR second Priority instant HW on-Demand and in heat reclaim: Cooling and HW, pumps to well or loop are "off" for that 100% HW recovery .
If you need a Texas ref: see R Rue at EnergyWiseStructures . com (from an Ohio GT nut).
Professional Member*
or go have your idea of small with 1000 sq ft of woods-view-able glass around your log cabin !
Why not try your well (tested) put in 2) 4.0's ! just as a professor DID for the past 12 years or more replacing 2600 gallons of oil boiler with a w:w and a F-Air GT that run 24/7 at 7 to 10 deg ambient in a -15 below capable winter area. 8 kw supplement only holds 65 inside on coldest dark night windy peak winter times.
Plenty of money was saved to have a 10+ "ton" loop installed at 8ft depths in 5 years. 100% ROI every next 5 years after!
Professional Member*
Those incentives are already there - it's called an electric bill. If people haven't decided it's enough of an incentive, that's the market speaking - and it won't change until the incentive get's bigger - which it will as energy prices continue to climb. Stop meddling and let the market forces do what they do. Incentives do not save any money - they just make the guy NOT getting the new A/C help pay for the guy who is.Good idea, why have the government involved at all? Let private utility companies provide incentives for downsizing equipment and reducing peak energy demand if it is in their best interest to do so. Let lenders determine if a house is built well enough for them to write a mortgage on it. Why require expensive licensing for the HVAC trade? Customers hire based on price and/or contractor reputation, not if they paid their license fees to the state every year. If a customer is gonna hire a hack, a state license requirement doesn't protect them. Let consumer demand and private industry regulate instead of the government. We all know how well the government runs anything they touch..
Yeah, I'm a Libertarian
Professional Member*
CF:
Absolutely, like we saw in debates, opposed to now continued gov't allocated "credits" helped feed me by the backs of the one's who loved their 'winner'.
WOW I can write backwards too
Professional Member*
We have to get the government out of the oil business. Energy costs are already subsidized by the taxpayers through wars etc. If energy prices were like they are in Europe people would demand efficient Homes and Vehicles.
Membership Chair/ARP Committee / Professional Member*
Sure they would demand efficient home and vehicles - subsidized by the government. Just in the interests of fairness, of course. <g>
PHM
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PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
The Power Companies got our government to eliminate the 10 & 12-SEER units to reduce their peak loads.
Of course, the 13 & higher have a lot more material & require a lot more refrigerant & cost the consumer a lot more money; plus many are oversized plus improperly installed on leaky & small ductwork with ultra high static which quadruples the leakage rate.
So, everyone gets screwed even the power companies don't get the peakload reductions they lobbied to get...
That is one time when the government should have listened to us contractors.
They could have lobbied for stricter & enforced EE building codes & duct systems, etc., but instead limited the consumer's & our choices.
An 18-SEER can end up being an 8 or, even 6-SEER when everything is wrong...is it time for everyone to wise-up...?
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