Replacement of Condo's HVAC Questions

[kapvixa]

Hi guys - hoping I could get some advise on how best to proceed,

I have a 3rd floor, vaulted ceiling (in living/dining) condo (1100 sqft) in Houston with a 2.5 ton condensor outside and indoor furr-down air handler (installed '98.) The current SEER rating is 8 and its leaking freon I am trying to have it replaced now. I have received 4 quotes with a wide variation in price and equipment choices so I wanted some help deciding how best to proceed. All 4 quotes indicate I should remain with a 2.5 ton system and go to equipment with a SEER 14 rating.

1. Based on my understanding, SEER is an efficiency rating - and since I have a furr-down unit, am I stuck with a max efficiency SEER 14? Also my understanding is aside from tonnage, the SEER ratings of the air handler and outside condenser have to the match? Do I have any options?

2. I do have attic access with a very large open area above the central area where the furrdown unit is in the ceiling and the ductwork must be - but I get the general impression from reading here that putting anything in the attic is not a good idea?
3. Should I consider some sort of renovation to place a different air handler in the unit? I am posting a small version of the floorplan. The intake is located in the ceiling (non cathedral) of the hallway. The bedrooms are non-cathedral. The living/dining is cathedral ceilings.

4. My father has a pref for Trane and as such, it seems the outdoor unit is an XB14 in the quotes. The indoor-unit gets more interesting. Multiple contractors are telling us that instead of using Tranes XB4FWF air handler we should use First Company's 30HX-10 Fan Coil as its the same thing and Trane rebrands them. I am confused though - the Trane seems to have a all aluminum fan coil while First Company's website says mixed copper and aluminum. How is this possible? Should I even trust this or go along with it?

Any thoughts/comments on what I should do here? I want to choose a contractor based on their merits, but also on ensuring they are recommending the most cost effective system I can for the unit as I am moving my parents in as their retirement home and I dont want to have to worry about things breaking/repairs or outrageous electricity bills. I am hampered by my lack of knowledge in these furr-down based units on what I should expect to see quoted to me.

thanks for your help!

[BaldLoonie]

I found a 4FWDA that looks a lot like the First Co. It's possible that First Co. made it for Trane but modified it for Trane like an all aluminum coil. I saw no ratings for the XB14 and the little air handler. But unless you have a high efficiency indoor blower motor, which doesn't seem to be the case, you won't get above 14 SEER anyway so buying an outdoor unit capable of more doesn't make sense. If you stayed all Trane, you could put an extended labor warranty on the system to protect against expensive bills in the future.

[kapvixa]

Thanks for the response - So after much more research, I don't see the value in attempting to make any structural changes, we would never recover the costs anytime soon.

It looks like we would be going with a XB14 on the outside and now its just the inside part that's I am trying to determine. I spoke to one of the companies and they said that the information provided was in error and that Trane's furr-down unit is possibly made by Texas Furnace but either way, they couldn't get it for several weeks at the earliest.

So the question I have - is it worth saving money up front and getting the First Company 30HX-10 now (due to the error in one of the quotes, the company is honoring a 10 year parts and labor warranty on it) or wait 3 weeks and obtain the Trane unit which will cost a sig bit more? Is the all aluminum coils in the Trane unit worth it vs the First Company unit?

[Shophound]

First Company has been making furdown fan coil units for apartment/condo use for years. The main caution here is that any indoor unit selected must be an ARI rated match for the selected outdoor unit.

With furdown systems you have the advantage of the ductwork and air handler being inside the condo vs. up in a blazing hot attic. That is already an efficiency boost over an equivalent SEER and tonnage with the air handler and ducts in the attic. The drawback to furdown systems is often the return air methods suck on the building cavities, and draw in air from places you don't want it to come from.

[kapvixa]

I tried getting the AHRI ratings on the combo from both the AHRI site and the FIrst Company site but I cannot pull up the combo of the Trane XB14 (4TTB4030E1) with a First Company 30HX at all. Two of the companies insist it will work - but how do I verify it?

[Shophound]

Ask to see their info that says the combo will work. Should be a document either from a manufacturer or ARI (Airconditioning and Refrigeration Institute, which assigns nominal tonnage numbers based on matched systems to all equipment manufactured and/or sold in the USA)

If they can't or won't show it to you, move on.

[kapvixa]

Yup. First Company confirmed it will not work. The max they can get is SEER 13 with their units to a different outdoor unit. Multiple companies have told me Trane doesnt make any furdown units period (thought their website shows one). Now trying to figure out if there are any SEER 14 compatible units out there. Who else (manufacture wise) should I look into? I checked Carrier's site - no furdown units shown there. Any other ideas?

[kapvixa]

Is it ok to go up in capacity to get the same efficiency or is not worth it? Aka - Based on the AHRI # 5291966 -
The Trane outdoor 4TTB4030E1 - rated 30,000 BTU, 2.5 tons combined with an inner fur-down of 4FWFA036A - rated 36,000 BTU works with an 28,600 BTU, EER 12 and a SEER of 14, but if I go down to the 30A airhandler - rated 30,000 BTU capacity, theres nothing listed for compatibility.
Since I am efficiency limited in the first place thanks to the furdown - do you think we are making too much fuss trying to get 14 SEER vs 13 SEER and is it worth it down the line for cost/efficiency concerns?

[BaldLoonie]

If the mfr rates a combo, it is fine. 1/2 ton bigger fan coil is common.

Goodman's ANCF is another alternative.

[Shophound]

If your ducts are inside the building and not in the attic, you are doing better at 13 SEER than a 14 SEER system with ducts in the attic. Duct losses work against efficiency ratings and actual delivered tonnage big time when the ducts are not in the same space as the air conditioned air.

[kapvixa]

All the ducts are in the ceiling and not in the attic - when I when up there to check, there is full drywall above all the locations of the furdown/ducts and insulation on top of it. Aside from the pipes, no evidence of the system in the attic. Just checked into the goodman option - can max it at 13 SEER.

[Shophound]

I'd say go for the proper ARI rated match at 13 SEER and enjoy. Many people do not know that efficiency and delivered capacities of a/c split systems take a big hit once equipment and ducts go up into a non air-conditioned attic.

I'll also let you in on a little secret: there's no way to field verify SEER. EER, yes. SEER, no.

[kapvixa]

OK, making sure I am not misunderstanding something here - the facts my ducts are in the ceiling (lowered) and not in the attic itself is just as bad as being in the attic? Aside from the pipes/wires to the existing air handler - there is nothing else up in the attic. Everything is below the drywall under the studs. I should still expect a huge hit on efficiency when it is installed from what's its rated nonetheless?

The different installers are giving the run around telling me what works and what doesn't without providing certificates. I've now had 4 different people tell me something's approved that the certificate doesn't exist for or First Company says doesn't work. It's kinda frustrating actually - I would think they would want to sell me an approved system if they are listed as authorized resellers of the different manufactures. Goodman manufactoring's rep said they couldnt tell me anything about workable combinations, I would have to speak to their authorized resllers and provided me three in the area - one of which is the one claiming false ratings and matches we already know cant work! So weird.

I'm hesitant to have someone come in an install something if they can't be honest up front. I've not haggled any of the quotes cost wise and don't really intend to. I never thought replacing the AC with an approved combination would be so frustrating.

[Shophound]

OK, making sure I am not misunderstanding something here - the facts my ducts are in the ceiling (lowered) and not in the attic itself is just as bad as being in the attic? Aside from the pipes/wires to the existing air handler - there is nothing else up in the attic. Everything is below the drywall under the studs. I should still expect a huge hit on efficiency when it is installed from what's its rated nonetheless?

No, that is not what I was saying at all. Please read the following carefully. Ducts and HVAC equipment that are not in the attic perform much better than ducts that are in the attic. What this equates to is that a 13 SEER matched system can perform better with ducts inside the condo than a 14 SEER with ducts in a hot attic.

The different installers are giving the run around telling me what works and what doesn't without providing certificates. I've now had 4 different people tell me something's approved that the certificate doesn't exist for or First Company says doesn't work. It's kinda frustrating actually - I would think they would want to sell me an approved system if they are listed as authorized resellers of the different manufactures. Goodman manufactoring's rep said they couldnt tell me anything about workable combinations, I would have to speak to their authorized resllers and provided me three in the area - one of which is the one claiming false ratings and matches we already know cant work! So weird.

I'm hesitant to have someone come in an install something if they can't be honest up front. I've not haggled any of the quotes cost wise and don't really intend to. I never thought replacing the AC with an approved combination would be so frustrating.

Earlier in the thread above, you said this:

First Company confirmed it will not work. The max they can get is SEER 13 with their units to a different outdoor unit.

This is what made me emphasis 13 SEER being a viable option for you since your ducts are inside the condo vs. in the attic. If First Company has documentation that indicates which outdoor unit(s), at 13 SEER, will work with their fan coil, get a copy of that and show it to your bidding contractors. I know you want 14 SEER; what I'm saying is that with your ducts and fan coil inside the house, you will likely get better performance at 13 SEER than an equivalent sized 14 SEER system with ducts and air handler in the attic. Also keep in mind you are jumping from 8 SEER to 13, which is a big leap. Your old condenser probably had a reciprocating compressor and condenser coil surface area barely big enough to manage its load. The 13 SEER equipment use scroll compressors and have much larger condenser coils to reject heat and keep operating pressures in the outdoor section reduced (which translates to higher efficiency).

[kapvixa]

Ah! Thank you for clarifying the confusion. I admit to misreading what you wrote.

Now let me explain the whole 14 SEER business, and I can sum it up in 1 word, "DAD." He's not letting me pull the trigger on any of the 13 options, he's demanding 14 and Trane on both

The SEER 13 Trane option was: Outer 4TTB3030E1 with inner 4FWFA031A furrdown replacement. It took 3 different Trane authorized resellers before one said they could it (the rest said no such inner unit).

We received an email from a Trane rep who said we should ask about the previously mentioned 4TTB4030E1 & 4FWFA036A furrdown replacement combo instead as he said it was a SEER 14 and that the resellers should be able to just place these in the current units' place. There was no indication I would have to put any new ducts in or that anything would end up in my attic at all. So my dad has gone nuts trying to find that but we are hitting the same wall of people claiming the unit doesn't exist.

I am in agreement that from 8 to 13 is great. I am not nuts about necessarily tracking down the 14 combo, but as its not an emergency, and I didn't see any downsides, I was letting him have at it. I was trying to ensure there wasn't a huge downside regarding it that I could use to convince my dad to just use the Trane SEER 13 combo. Oh and we did obtain certificates on the above two combinations.

[Shophound]

Oh, so this is your father's condo instead of yours, meaning it's his money instead of yours. I get it.

Brand loyalty may be working against him, here. Aside from the spine fin coils and the old Climatuff reciprocating compressors (which aren't used much anymore, superceded by scroll compressors), there's nothing really special about Trane units to distinguish them from other major brands like Carrier or Lennox. Even re: the spine fin coils, they collect dirt like crazy and should be cleaned like clockwork yearly...more often if cottonwood trees are nearby. But the same holds true for any coil.

[kapvixa]

lol. It's my condo, well on paper anyways - its now vacant, and I am giving it to my parents for their retirement and will still be making the payments. As far as who is paying for the AC - not sure. I was planning on paying for it now. But the bigger issue is he's a bit stubborn so doing stuff above his head is usually not a wise idea. I'm going to point out what you said there regarding the Brand Loyalty, maybe it will get him moving!

[BaldLoonie]

It is hard to find a good contractor You have an uncommon setup with that air handler which is making it harder to find a matched system. I don't think First Co. helps any since they don't participate in AHRI ratings. That's the bible on what's matched although with a 3rd party indoor unit, it is computer simulated not actually tested.

Goodman rates their AH with the GSX13 but not the SSX14. I'm guessing the little coil just won't get the increase in SEER.