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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    State College, PA
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    1,176
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthTex View Post
    You said this was a heat pump outdoor, would not use a solenoid with a heat pump with out some specical consideration for the heating cycle. Is there a suction acculator installed between the reversing valve and the compressor? May be an option
    I have systems I maintain that are heat pumps with long line sets with a LL solenoid that have run for years with no problem.

    I think Mark B. nailed it on what is needed.
    Can someone please explain to me -
    Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time, but plenty of time to do it twice?


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  2. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Quote Originally Posted by saintmichael36 View Post
    The liquid line solenoid would pump down the unit and trap all of the liquid refrigerant before it hits the low side of the system.
    No, it would be energized and de-energized by calls to Y to the outdoor unit, so it will close when the system cycles off, and open when the system cycles on.
    It simply stops the flow of refrigerant when the compressor stops running, no pump down.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthTex View Post
    You said this was a heat pump outdoor, would not use a solenoid with a heat pump with out some specical consideration for the heating cycle.
    There is no consideration needed, other than making sure the LL solenoid is a bi-flow type.

    In a long line set application, with the majority of the liquid line above the condenser, the LL solenoid should be installed within a couple of feet of the outdoor unit.
    In addition to reducing refrigerant migration to the low side, it prevents the refrigerant in the liquid line from draining back to, and filling the condenser coil.
    When the condenser is filled with liquid there can be some really nasty spikes in discharge pressure, and extreme vibration and compressor noise when a compressor starts up, especially with scroll compressors.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    State College, PA
    Posts
    1,176
    Now that makes TOTAL sense. That is exactly what I was thinking, for some reason just could not get it formulated into words.

    Thanks Mark, at least I know I was going in the right direction.
    Can someone please explain to me -
    Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time, but plenty of time to do it twice?


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  4. #17
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    743
    Bi directional solenoid valve would do the trick.

    And no need for a p-trap if the evaporator is HIGHER than the condensing unit.

    And compressor was "trying to slug liquid"....what on earth does that mean???

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    State College, PA
    Posts
    1,176
    Quote Originally Posted by bunny View Post
    Bi directional solenoid valve would do the trick.
    What is a bi directional solenoid valve?

    Never heard of such a thing?
    Can someone please explain to me -
    Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time, but plenty of time to do it twice?


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  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    1,245
    Cool thanks guys (especially Mark Beiser) for the information and explanations. I will throw a LL solenoid in tomorrow. One last quick question, I am going to pump the system down and I'm wondering how many pounds of refrigerant you can jam into a 5 ton compressor. The reason I ask is because I added several pounds to the system to get the charge dialed in, the factory charge is about 15 if my memory serves me. Are these things built to hold 18-20 pounds of refrigerant in a pump down? Also, I'm not 100% sure how much is in the system, I think there was a loss of charge somewhere while it sat in the warehouse for years. I did not hear a refrigerant rush when I cracked the valves and it was way undercharged after adding refrigerant for the lineset length.
    America; first we fight for our freedom,
    then we make laws to take it away.

    -Alfred E Newman

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Since it is a heat pump, make sure you get a bi-flow LL solenoid.

    With your lineset length, you won't be able to pump the entire charge down, as there is more refrigerant in the system than can be stored in the condenser.
    Use the system to push some out into a recovery cylinder, then pump the system down.

    Also, if the system does not have a TXV at the indoor coil, I'd highly recommend installing one, preferably a non bleed type.

    A non bleed TXV will help prevent migration to the low side, as well as increase cyclical efficiency in the cooling mode.
    LL solenoid at the outdoor unit prevents liquid migration/drain back to the outdoor coil.
    Crankcase heater prevents migration to the compressor.
    Inverted trap at the indoor coil prevents liquid refrigerant, that condenses in the indoor coil, from running out all at once and slugging the compressor when it starts.

    These are the things that will help a system with long lines live a long and happy life.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    1,245
    So now the system has a crankcase heater, TXV, inverted trap, and a bi-flow LL solenoid. The solenoid made a big difference, its no longer making that godaweful sound after sitting for a few hours and starting up. Thanks again for the help!
    America; first we fight for our freedom,
    then we make laws to take it away.

    -Alfred E Newman

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Columbia, MD
    Posts
    4,488
    Cool. Glad how everything turned out. Isn't it amzing how things work when they are properly installed?

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,335
    Quote Originally Posted by saintmichael36 View Post
    The liquid line solenoid would pump down the unit and trap all of the liquid refrigerant before it hits the low side of the system.
    Your brain is stuck in Commercial Refrigeration mode .... come back to Residential

    In comm refrig , yes LLS pumps the unit down and shuts off with assistance of LPS , but when used in Resi , LLS is generally used as a road block to keep things where they need to stay , and is energized same time as contactor. Its all shut down at once.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,335
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Since it is a heat pump, make sure you get a bi-flow LL solenoid.

    With your lineset length, you won't be able to pump the entire charge down, as there is more refrigerant in the system than can be stored in the condenser.
    Use the system to push some out into a recovery cylinder, then pump the system down.

    Also, if the system does not have a TXV at the indoor coil, I'd highly recommend installing one, preferably a non bleed type.

    A non bleed TXV will help prevent migration to the low side, as well as increase cyclical efficiency in the cooling mode.
    LL solenoid at the outdoor unit prevents liquid migration/drain back to the outdoor coil.
    Crankcase heater prevents migration to the compressor.
    Inverted trap at the indoor coil prevents liquid refrigerant, that condenses in the indoor coil, from running out all at once and slugging the compressor when it starts.

    These are the things that will help a system with long lines live a long and happy life.
    Holy cow thats alot of work. Just put the OD unit on a pair of stilts

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Burlington , Mass
    Posts
    470
    I agree with a liquid line solenoid. Not pumping the unit down, just closing when the call is satisfied. Install it in the liquid line close to the evaporator. That will keep liquid from migrating on the off cycle.
    I'll be there when I get there and not a minute later

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,335
    I've seen them at the indoor coil and at the OD unit .... i guess it doesnt really matter

    Both should have a yellow wire close by ...

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