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  1. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    3,824
    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    OK, this site lists one in my county, two in an adjacent county. However, they all do commercial/institutional work. They'd do mine, if I insisted, for a price... more than I'm willing to spend.
    Did you actually TALK to them? They will be in the house 1/2 hr tops. So they invoice you for an hour. It will be under $ Remember You just want the totals, NOT balancing

    Also, you keep talking about "salesman" You mentioned that the one owner had the company since 1975. Thats fine, but tell him to bring his manager or son with hime next time so you can see deeper into the company. Because he'll (they) will be retired 10 years from now.

    Also you may not think you don't want to talk to a sales rep.....but you have....and your sold on a 4Ton 20 SEER system. Another sales member is not needed, you sold yourself.

    Good luck
    Last edited by beenthere; 08-13-2012 at 05:15 PM. Reason: price
    Always here

  2. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by energy star View Post
    Did you actually TALK to them? They will be in the house 1/2 hr tops. So they invoice you for an hour. It will be under $ Remember You just want the totals, NOT balancing
    Yep, they charge $ a day with a 1 day minimum. He said they do commercial work, not residential. He was surprised that anyone would ask to do a private residence. He said if my ducts were designed for 3.5 tons of airflow, pushing 4 tons wouldn't be any problem. He said all an A/C installer has to do to verify duct capacity is "measure" the size of the ducts and determine if they're lined up the way they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by energy star View Post

    Also, you keep talking about "salesman" You mentioned that the one owner had the company since 1975. Thats fine, but tell him to bring his manager or son with hime next time so you can see deeper into the company. Because he'll (they) will be retired 10 years from now.
    Both businesses are in the hands of the "sons", but were started by their fathers in 1975/1985.

    Quote Originally Posted by energy star View Post

    Also you may not think you don't want to talk to a sales rep.....but you have....and your sold on a 4Ton 20 SEER system. Another sales member is not needed, you sold yourself.

    Good luck
    Yes, I agree, I pretty much sold myself. But, depending on Manual J calculations yet to come from the winning "bidder", I may talk myself down to the XL20i in a 3 ton. It's not over 'til it's over.
    Last edited by beenthere; 08-13-2012 at 05:16 PM. Reason: prices

  3. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,069
    Prices are not allowed.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  4. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    It would be nice to see their Mannual J calculations. Some contractors do the calcs, but are know to use incorrect data. They conservatively estimate insulation, windows, use incorrect shading factors, incorrect desing temperatures, use a conservative air leakage, etc.

    End the end, many customers in hot weather won't like a properly sized system because it run continously and seems like it's maxed out. We most familiar with automobiles. If your design requirement was to go 70mph on flat ground and 0 headwind, and 45mph up a 10% grade and carry 3 passengers and 100lbs of luggage, you'd get a compact car with about a 40HP engine. It will meet those requirements. It will probably also get 40mpg city and 45mpg highway. But that's not ideal for most.

  5. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Prices are not allowed.
    Ouch, that hurts! Just slapped myself upside my head again. Bad girl!

  6. #84
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,728
    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    He said if my ducts were designed for 3.5 tons of airflow, pushing 4 tons wouldn't be any problem. He said all an A/C installer has to do to verify duct capacity is "measure" the size of the ducts and determine if they're lined up the way they should be.
    Lot of assumptions there. First one we already know does not exist. You don't have duct work designed for 3.5 tons of airflow. How?

    Size of return.

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    You have a 20X20 return grille, if its a filter return grille, its good for about 1.5 tons of cooling at a velocity of around 380 to 400FPM. So since your return grille is under sized. Why trust that your duct work in the attic is anywhere close to being adequate.
    Think they'd really put 3.5 ton of duct in and be that deficient about the grille? Saving small money on the visible and NOT saving big money on the invisible? Other supporting information - comments about filter, size of house (very unlikely to have 3.5 ton ductwork in that size house.)

    You might be getting 900 cfm at .8 static and just barely not freezing your coil, which explains why humidity is well managed. Adding a return may get you a few cfm, but not enough to make up the deficiency for the additional 1/2 ton. And why take the risk and expense? The 3 ton unit isn't much smaller (your current unit more than carries the load, right?) and you can always further improve the home with the equipment cost savings and energy savings if it turns out 3 days a year it only holds 78f instead of 75f.

    You can go with the 4 ton, but be prepared to replace very expensive ECM blower motors as they burn up in the attempt to deliver 1600 cfm. And don't be surprised when the MFR declines the warranty claim, your duct work is not their fault.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  7. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    It would be nice to see their Mannual J calculations. Some contractors do the calcs, but are know to use incorrect data. They conservatively estimate insulation, windows, use incorrect shading factors, incorrect desing temperatures, use a conservative air leakage, etc.

    End the end, many customers in hot weather won't like a properly sized system because it run continously and seems like it's maxed out. We most familiar with automobiles. If your design requirement was to go 70mph on flat ground and 0 headwind, and 45mph up a 10% grade and carry 3 passengers and 100lbs of luggage, you'd get a compact car with about a 40HP engine. It will meet those requirements. It will probably also get 40mpg city and 45mpg highway. But that's not ideal for most.
    I'm not concerned with the unit running constantly, so long as it's in stage 1 and saving me energy. What I DON'T want is for it to run constantly in stage 2 to maintain in the heat of the day during summer... which in my neck of the woods is pretty much 11 AM to 8 PM, May through October. Running a 3 ton dual compressor unit at full speed all the time to maintain my daytime comfort level of 75 degrees would tick me off!

  8. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    I'm not concerned with the unit running constantly, so long as it's in stage 1 and saving me energy. What I DON'T want is for it to run constantly in stage 2 to maintain in the heat of the day during summer... which in my neck of the woods is pretty much 11 AM to 8 PM, May through October. Running a 3 ton dual compressor unit at full speed all the time to maintain my daytime comfort level of 75 degrees would tick me off!
    But cost less to operate then a 4 ton going to second stage once or twice an hour for 10 minutes.
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  9. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    But cost less to operate then a 4 ton going to second stage once or twice an hour for 10 minutes.
    Yes, OK, I can see that. But... will the 3 ton struggle to maintain my 75 degrees so much that I end up unhappy because the temp rises to 78 every afternoon? That's what I'm trying to avoid, while saving energy and reducing strain on the equipment.

    I will have a serious discussion with my contractors about the 3 ton XL20i versus 4 ton for my home, but I still may not be convinced... unless... I could find someone with a similar home in a similar environment that can attest to the efficiency AND comfort of the 3 ton. Anybody got references in your Rolodex I could talk to?

  10. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Northeast, Md.
    Posts
    129
    I have worked for a Trane dealer, and have installed a few 20I systems. Love installing them, but hell with working on them. LOL I personally put a 15i in my home and stayed away from anything 2 stage. Yes this advanced technology is great, but put it in 80% of homes duct work, and its useless. It's like putting Mag wheels on a pinto!

  11. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    4,408
    Here is some info for you. Pay special attention to page four and five.Proper application.pdf
    Make your expertise uniquely valuable.

    Make your influence uniquely far-reaching.

  12. #90
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,728
    Strain the equipment? Cycling is what strains equipment. And wastes energy.

    I was wrong, you aren't getting it.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  13. #91
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Strain the equipment? Cycling is what strains equipment. And wastes energy.

    I was wrong, you aren't getting it.
    I get it! I guess I didn't express very well what I was trying to say, so let me revise my comment and say it a different way and see if you follow me.

    I'm all for saving energy and reducing strain on the equipment, BUT what i want to avoid is having the 3 ton struggle to maintain my 75 degrees so that I end up unhappy because the temp rises to 78 (or more) every afternoon.

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