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  1. #170
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    Jan 2009
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    Keokuk, IA
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    It's hard to find low BTU anything. On premium models, 60k BTU is the smallest. WTF! What if you have 2 systems and actually want the upstairs sized correctly. Forget 45k BTU, many homes might only need 25-30k BTU. You can get a fireplace that small, why not a 30k BTU 2 stage furnace with a nice even 18k BTU's on low fire, which is all many spaces need 3/4 of the time in winter or even a modulating version that goes down to almost 10k BTU's.

  2. #171
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Oooo, open beamed family room!! Better add 12,000 btu to THAT load! Oooo, and those inter webs, caint trus um! Bigger's bettr, mam. (they just don't say for who) Lmao...
    THIS COMMENT IS IMPOLITE, BELITTLES ME AND FLORIDA HVAC CONTRACTORS IN GENERAL, AND IS DOWNRIGHT IGNORANT AND OFFENSIVE!

    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    What a bunch of spineless hacks and butchers, with thumb and forefinger on the scale as they weigh your ground beef. Doing the cya dance at your expense. They've never seen an undersized unit in their lives, nor do they have any clue what happens to load as you fix a house. Preying on your fear.
    THIS COMMENT IS IMPOLITE, BELITTLES ME AND FLORIDA HVAC CONTRACTORS IN GENERAL, AND IS DOWNRIGHT IGNORANT AND OFFENSIVE AND NOT HELPFUL!

    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    And those "audits," not giving you your blower door number or duct leakage, what a complete farce! How are you to calculate load without leakage numbers? Typical leakage on 1800 sf could swing load a ton and a half!
    THIS COMMENT IS IMPOLITE, BELITTLES FLORIDA POWER AND LIGHT COMPANY EMPLOYEES, AND IS DOWNRIGHT IGNORANT AND OFFENSIVE AND NOT HELPFUL!

    FYI, blower door tests offered by the local utility (FPL) are done to assist the homeowner in sealing EXISTING leaks, not to provide data for use in sizing a replacement unit!

    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Sounds like you'll be getting a system that runs mostly on low and chokes on high. Well, you are complicit as well, being too cheap to pay for load calc and esp test is like building an addition without an architect or building specifications. Pretty shortsighted when it comes to a long investment. Means a rushed, "get ER dun" job where thoughtful design matters.

    Maybe you won't suffer for the shortcut, or not know that you are suffering for it but I've got p len ty of examples where this approach has led to expensive regret.
    THIS COMMENT IS IMPOLITE, BELITTLES ME AND FLORIDA HVAC CONTRACTORS IN GENERAL, AND IS DOWNRIGHT IGNORANT AND OFFENSIVE AND NOT HELPFUL!

    FYI, if you've read ANYTHING I've written in the thread, you'd know that I'm committed to doing a proper Manual J BEFORE I make a decison to install 3 or 4 ton.

    FYI, in considering the usefulness of the "help" provided in this forum, I tend to put LESS weight on the suggestions of those who sit behind a computer screen belittling homeowners all day long and MORE weight on the suggestions of those who spend their days and nights in the field dealing with "real world" issues and solutions.

    Thank you very much!

  3. #172
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by 54regcab View Post
    Good one ted.. People are scared to death of breaking the "tried and true 500sqft per ton". Insulation levels on homes have improved over the past 40 years, yet the 500sqft per ton rule remains. They will input the Man J program to get the result they want, which oddly always seems to end up at about 500sqft per ton.

    To add insult to injury the heat ends up being grossly oversized, since it's difficult to find low BTU furnaces with high blower capacities.
    I don't really appreciate you encouraging tedkidd's belittling of homeowners and HVAC contractors in the South.

    But that said, you do realize I'm in Florida and we don't use furnaces, low BTU or otherwise? In fact, it's rare to even engage the 8KW heat strip to assist the heat pump in my neck of the woods!

  4. #173
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    I think that what you have described as your house 'features' may more closely be attributes of the " grass hut on the beach" than you or many here realize.

    If I were a contractor, I'd probably not take on any residences with cathedral ceiling type structures as an appropriate business opportunity.

    In other words, the higher than usual required capacity, as much as I Hate to say it, seems reasonable.
    Thanks Dan! I think you're getting the picture. I fell in love with this house because it's on a lake and pretty much "let's the outside in", almost like living in a grass hut, but with all the modern conveniences.

    In fact, I've lived in a number of locations in the tropics where my home let the outside in, doors and windows always open, no air conditioning, and I loved it! First in Panama at Howard Air Station, big old 3-story on "the hill". Then near Clark Air Base, Philippines, in a big 1-story. Later, while building an un-airconditioned home in the Philippines, I lived in a "real" grass hut for about 6 months. Then moved into the small custom-built one story in the barrio, with wall to wall windows, always open.

    Of course, all these "open-window" homes had bars on the windows (except the nipa hut) and no sliding glass doors. I'd probably be perfectly comfortable without A/C if I could leave my doors and windows open, but in the US, leaving windows open invites intruders... burglars, rapists, murderers... and is not practical.

  5. #174
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    Aug 2012
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    Florida Space Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Your '4 ton air handler' is likely set to 3-3.5 ton of airflow, 1200-1400 cfm. 4 ton will be set 200 cfm higher, so we can be fairly certain that's a bad idea. Be nice to know airflow, which can be backed into by knowing fan setting and measuring static. .5 is too high.
    I never got an intelligible response to my question as to what was meant by "that's a bad idea". Anybody have a clue? Discussion of particular static readings (.3 versus .8 versus .05 or whatever) are all technical mumbo jumbo to me, and not helpful!

    FYI, I should have said my current evaporator coil and single speed air handler combo is a 4 ton Rheem unit, mated with a 3.5 ton Rheem condenser, and my indoor RH rarely goes above 42%.

    Please, responses from tedkidd are no longer desired!

    Anyone else here have a clue what he meant by "bad idea" and do you agree/disagree? It's been my understanding that an additional 200 cfm of airflow would be easily handled by ducts that have been handling 3.5 tons for at least the past 12 years, and likely the past 32 years! I do understand my return may be undersized and I need some dampers and duct re-routing to cure one "too cold" room and one "too hot" room, but that will be corrected.

  6. #175
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,632
    Joy,


    Your 4 ton air handler means it is designed to handle up to a 4 ton system. You have 3.5 ton system, so that is likely what the fan is set for. You keep attributing meaning to the capacity of your air handler even though that's not relevant.

    Your "excellent dehumidification" is likely due to low airflow across your coil, which is likely due to not enough duct volume for 3.5 ton. Slow airflow increases dehumidification.

    This means a few things you've been told numerous times but seem to disregard:

    1: It is very likely you aren't receiving 3.5 ton of cooling and
    2: You don't have 3.5 tons of duct.


    Your old fan just runs at whatever setting it's on. But your beautiful new ECM blower gets on there it'll be throttling up in an attempt to make 4 tons of flow through your 2.5 ton of duct.

    Now, you've ALSO indicated that since some nice energy improvements have been made to your home, which resulted in your "not 3.5 tons" of cooling going from insufficient to sufficient (albeit imbalanced) and "properly cycling off as it should" or whatever.

    The statements I made about your house do not demean your house. It sounds lovely, on a lake and all. And you are spending $ on high end equipment. Both indicate this is not a slum. We are talking about load, not aesthetics of your floorplan. Sloped ceiling or flat ceiling does not dramatically effect LOAD. LOAD, you keep comparing your home to your neighbors even though YOU'VE JUST SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED your home, reduced it's load! Your house is no longer like your neighbors homes!

    And the comment about how things are sold is a function of just that, how things are sold. Incentive is corrupt by design everywhere, not just Florida. This is not the fault of the participants.

    Nothing is really "free". Once you see that, you may see that the idea of having 5 people do design for "free" means each one on average, has to do 5 designs to get one sale. Think about that a moment. Doing designs that have low likelihood of implementation or compensation. They are going to take every shortcut available. They might not even know what good design is. For them good sales skills are more important than design skills. If they don't they won't eat.

    So the idea you are getting really good consulting for free is broken, that needs to be shaken into you because gentle hasn't worked. Good design comes from process, often from multiple iterations, and you don't get that free. This isn't about your ego, it's about helping you understand how to make good long term decisions. And help you understand that HVAC contractors will usually lean towards over sizing, particularly if they are selling staged equipment.

    Or just throw in the 4 ton.
    Last edited by tedkidd; 08-21-2012 at 03:27 PM.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  7. #176
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    So the idea you are getting really good consulting for free is broken.
    Thanks for the free consult. Your check is in the mail. I don't need any more of your disrespect (reference earlier put downs). Please STOP!

  8. #177
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
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    5,520
    People that a passionate about soemthing tend to get a little aggressive when soemone who is clearly looking for help, appears to disregard their input without any good factual, objective basis. I think the comments are probably meant more to be sarcastic than disrespectful. However, if you don't respect the informed opinion of a expert in the field of HVAC, isn't that somewhat disrespectful, only in a different way.

    Tedkid I think is pushing hte point because he cares and is passionate abotu HVAC. Sadly, many contractors don't seem to have that passion for their trade. Many seem more focused on making money which, to use a colorful anology that my contractor likes, it's called "wham, bam, thank you Mame". Proper installation is one thing, proper sizing and design is another entirely. Its' part of installation, but requires taking some time to really evaluate and crunch some numbers.

  9. #178
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    Passion and self-serving egotistical rudeness are two completely different things. Expressing opposing opinions in a polite manner in an open forum is not disrespectful. Numbers will be crunched before equipment is installed in my home. Tell tedkidd to go get a job, or at least go back to his desk and bother someone else, perhaps someone willing to pay him real money for a sight unseen design consultation... and leave me alone! If I want his advice, I'll ask for it.

  10. #179
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    3,823
    Can we close or lock this thread please. It's to the point that no more info or suggestions are needed, it's also casting a negative light or our Forum.
    Always here

  11. #180
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville,Fl
    Posts
    123
    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Joy View Post
    Thanks! I see you're in Jacksonville, so you have a better idea what the contractors in my neck of the woods are getting at with the 4 ton recommendations. Extreme heat and humidity 6 or more months out of the year.
    I think the 4 ton, two speed gives you the best balance between dehumidification and varying load conditions. You can design a system for a perfectly insulated, tight house all day long. It's not the Northern U.S. it's the real world, people entertain, people leave the doors open, shockingly, this happens on a 95F degree day at 95%RH. While lot's of good points have been made here, by everyone, if you were to take my advice, I would recommend you settle on a contractor, soon, then work with him/her to get the job done. Generally speaking, we all are trying to make the same profit margin, so if you trust your contractor of choice, trust that they'll charge you fairly, and stand behind their work, even if they aren't the biggest. Not to muddy the waters here any more than they are, but I'm going with Amana in my home next year.

  12. #181
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by energy star View Post
    Can we close or lock this thread please. It's to the point that no more info or suggestions are needed, it's also casting a negative light or our Forum.
    Fine with me! It's usefulness to me has run its course. If you don't like tedkidd casting a negative light any more, turn it off!

  13. #182
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
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    503
    Quote Originally Posted by Krzyd View Post
    I think the 4 ton, two speed gives you the best balance between dehumidification and varying load conditions. You can design a system for a perfectly insulated, tight house all day long. It's not the Northern U.S. it's the real world, people entertain, people leave the doors open, shockingly, this happens on a 95F degree day at 95%RH. While lot's of good points have been made here, by everyone, if you were to take my advice, I would recommend you settle on a contractor, soon, then work with him/her to get the job done. Generally speaking, we all are trying to make the same profit margin, so if you trust your contractor of choice, trust that they'll charge you fairly, and stand behind their work, even if they aren't the biggest. Not to muddy the waters here any more than they are, but I'm going with Amana in my home next year.
    Very smart! I agree! Thank you! But I'll probably go with Trane.

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