Pros & Cons of Trane XL20i Versus XL16i Heat Pump

[Florida Joy]

Considering replacing 12 y/o 3.5 ton Rheem heat pump which is costly to run and can't maintain my desired 74/72 degree day/night comfort levels when it's 95 degrees outside during the day and only cools down to 78 degrees at night here in central Florida. The outside unit is badly corroded due to poor installation. Previous owner had it put half on, half off the existing cement slab and 2 inches away from an irrigation sprinkler.

Contractor says load calc puts my 1827 sf lakefront home at high end of 3.5 ton single stage or 4 ton dual stage. I have 6 sets of 8 ft wide sliding glass doors to let the outside in on the NE and SE sides, as well as a 350sf family room with an open beam 14 ft high ceiling (no insulation there).

Considering the Trane XL20i heat pump 4 ton combo rated at 17.75 SEER or the Trane XL16i heat pump 4 ton combo rated at 17.5 SEER. Difference in cost is negligible with the rebates being offered by Trane and FPL and one contractorr is offering a "free" 5-inch media filter with either choice.

What's the trade-off in efficiency and long term reliability between the 2 compressor unit and the single 2-stage compressor unit, given that compressor start-up is the greatest strain on a compressor over the long haul. I mean, if the 2 compressors go on and off, but the dual stage compressor just changes speed, does that mean the dual stage will last longer? Would it also be more efficient?

The old Rheem does manage to keep the RH inside pretty low... measured at 40% earlier today... I wonder if the Trane would do the same. Outside RH runs between 75 and 85% most days.

[second opinion]

Go with the 20

[SkyHeating]

The XL20i is far and away better. We install them at least 3 to 1 over the XL16i. First don't worry as much about that .25 SEER difference because with the XL20i you get communicating capability a true 2 ton compressor and a true 4 ton compressor for the best staging and dehumidification.

I would also see if you can get your homes air leakage sealed or insulation added or better/sealed ducting because that could drop the size needed down to a 3 ton which costs less up front, will save the most money because now your home is performing better and is up to a 19 SEER.

[S.T.Ranger]

I would also recommend the XL20, and suggest that you take advantage of the Rebate program that will soon be in effect (Sep. I think). I am assuming you are aware of this program?

[Florida Joy]

I would also recommend the XL20, and suggest that you take advantage of the Rebate program that will soon be in effect (Sep. I think). I am assuming you are aware of this program?

Thanks! Yes, the estimates I'm getting on Trane units include the fall factory rebates which begin August 15th. Based on SkyHeating's comments about the 3 ton versus the 4 ton for my, I think I'll get back with the two contractors I'm considering and see what they say. I'm all about saving money up front and keeping my electric bills as low as possible over the long haul. But I also expect to be comfortable and don't want to have to compromise by setting my t-stat up to 78 degrees to satisfy "design requirements" of a smaller system.

[S.T.Ranger]

Also see if you qualify for a tax credit with the install. When the first credit was available we installed a number of the XL20i systems, as it was a no-brainer. Between the credit from the Gov. and the Trane rebate, you would not have paid that much more to get the XL20 as opposed to a standard XR13 system.

Also check to see if your state is offering anything. In Va, it was minimal, and I was told you basically have to agree to give access to your property for a certain amount of time (3 or 5 year, I think), which, for me...is out of the question. "By invitation only..." lol

But that is up to you to decide.

[Florida Joy]

The XL20i is far and away better. We install them at least 3 to 1 over the XL16i. First don't worry as much about that .25 SEER difference because with the XL20i you get communicating capability a true 2 ton compressor and a true 4 ton compressor for the best staging and dehumidification.

I would also see if you can get your homes air leakage sealed or insulation added or better/sealed ducting because that could drop the size needed down to a 3 ton which costs less up front, will save the most money because now your home is performing better and is up to a 19 SEER.

I tried to post a reply, but I think I messed up and hit "Reply to Thread" instead of "Reply With Quote". Since I'm a guest, not a pro, I think that post went to the round file.

Anyway, my response to your recommendations is this:

I had FPL out last week to do the energy survey. They checked for duct leaks, window/door leaks, and evaluated my insulation. As a result, I had the ducts sealed and added R30 to bring the total to R38. Doors and windows were tight, so no repairs were required. This information was provided to the contractors bidding on my A/C replacement and all but one came up with 3.5 ton single stage or 4 ton two stage as recommended solutions. The one lone wolf said I was stuck with 3.5 ton single stage because anything else would be over or under-sized, so I shouldn't even look at a two stage option. BTW, he was a Carrier dealer and offered me only one solution. Turns out the p/n suite he offered me as "Performance Series" is listed on Carrier's website as a "Comfort Series" p/n. Guess he thought I wouldn't check!

[Florida Joy]

Also see if you qualify for a tax credit with the install. When the first credit was available we installed a number of the XL20i systems, as it was a no-brainer. Between the credit from the Gov. and the Trane rebate, you would not have paid that much more to get the XL20 as opposed to a standard XR13 system.

Also check to see if your state is offering anything. In Va, it was minimal, and I was told you basically have to agree to give access to your property for a certain amount of time (3 or 5 year, I think), which, for me...is out of the question. "By invitation only..." lol

But that is up to you to decide.

Checked on federal tax credit already... none available for my situation. FL has no personal income tax (no tax credits) and offers no rebates. So what I get on the XL20i is $1020 from FPL and $1000 from Trane, plus a $240 cash discount, plus a $100 coupon from Angie's List for using a preferred contractor. The standard 3.5 ton XB14 system my neighbor had installed a couple months ago (same basic house) would be 15 SEER and run $2000 less for the install due to lower FPL rebate ($475) and no factory rebate from Trane. They say they are saving $100 a month on electric since they installed the XB14.

[S.T.Ranger]

XB is a good system. I am quite sure they will be happy with their purchase for years to come.

And I am not familiar with the "FPL" and how you are getting this amount. Could you explain that?

[Florida Joy]

XB is a good system. I am quite sure they will be happy with their purchase for years to come.

And I am not familiar with the "FPL" and how you are getting this amount. Could you explain that?

FPL is Florida Power & Light, our local utility company. I don't actually see the rebate money, the contractor takes it off the bid price up front. Then FPL sends it directly to the contractor when he submits a certificate of completion with all the appropriate data as to the combo he installed to get to the applicable SEER being offered the rebate. Same way with the FPL rebate on my duct repairs and my added insulation. FPL gave me a certificate on the duct repairs worth $115 and on the added insulation worth $150. So when I had the work done, the contractors took those amounts off the price they bid for the work. I signed the certificates indicating the work had been completed and the contractors sent them to FPL to get their money. So my out of pocket for repairing 11 ducts and 1 return was $125, and my out of pocket for adding R30 to the whole house was $300. Not bad, in my opinion.

[Florida Joy]

FPL is Florida Power & Light, our local utility company. I don't actually see the rebate money, the contractor takes it off the bid price up front. Then FPL sends it directly to the contractor when he submits a certificate of completion with all the appropriate data as to the combo he installed to get to the applicable SEER being offered the rebate. Same way with the FPL rebate on my duct repairs and my added insulation. FPL gave me a certificate on the duct repairs worth $115 and on the added insulation worth $150. So when I had the work done, the contractors took those amounts off the price they bid for the work. I signed the certificates indicating the work had been completed and the contractors sent them to FPL to get their money. So my out of pocket for repairing 11 ducts and 1 return was $125, and my out of pocket for adding R30 to the whole house was $300. Not bad, in my opinion.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just go with the simpler, cheaper XB14. Would be so much easier to "set up"... no complicated communications that could get fouled up. And $2000 is a lot of money to me.

[tedkidd]

1800 lb gorilla- what's duct ESP at 1600 cfm.

Also, can't maintain or can't recover? You set n forget, or jerk throttle around like an epillectic bus driver? Seems a small distinction but is a BIG difference.

[S.T.Ranger]

You're not really expecting HVAC Contractors to encourage you to...spend less?

lol

I will reiterate that the XB series is a good system. I am guessing your neighbors have 14 SEER with variable speed giving them 15 SEER. Last I checked the XL20i is rated usually at about 19SEER. The cost difference is significant, but, there are features that you will not get with the XB, so, it is up to your contractor to advise you as to the best course of action. Hopefully he will be honest with more than his bottom line in view.

If you are considering XL20i because you have been advised as to why you should purchase this, that is good...chances are you understand the benefits. If not, then it might be a good idea to weigh the pros and cons. What does one have that the other doesn't? And that works both ways. Sometimes I absolutely hate even installing a programmable T-stat, as it is more complicated than some people can seem to grasp, despite a guide-book, personal instruction, and even a return visit to instruct again...lol.

But you get my point.

As far as it being "easier to set up," that is not something that really concerns you, this is for the contractor to handle. Find out some info on the T-stat that will go with the XL20i, make sure you are going to be okay with it.

Only you can weigh the options and make the decision, based upon what you can spend. Your contractor should be able to help you make that decision.

The most important aspect is no matter what system you decide to install, make sure it is installed properly. This means be sure you are getting a good contractor.

The last thing I would recommend is a ten year labor warranty (Trane already offers a 10 year on parts when registered, 12 year on compressor for the XL, as well as two year labor with the XL). When averaged, the annual cost is minimal. This will insure that for ten years repair costs are limited to the annual average of the labor warranty.

Good luck with your decision, Florida Joy.

[catmanacman]

The 20i is great at keeping the humidity level low in the house due to the long run time on 1 st stage ,they are great for comfort .

[tedkidd]

You're not really expecting HVAC Contractors to encourage you to...spend less?

Actually I see this all the time. It's a closing trick. "you don't need all that, sign here, save some money."

Its only later that homeowners realize saving a few hundred dollars on a fifteen year decision can be really stupid.

Extra money spent on better is shortly forgotten just as money saved on cheaper is. Missing critical features are painfully remembered for the life of the decision.

[S.T.Ranger]

Actually I see this all the time. It's a closing trick. "you don't need all that, sign here, save some money."

Its only later that homeowners realize saving a few hundred dollars on a fifteen year decision can be really stupid.

Extra money spent on better is shortly forgotten just as money saved on cheaper is. Missing critical features are painfully remembered for the life of the decision.

It might be helpful for you to advise as to why XL20i is better.

S.T.

[Florida Joy]

The 20i is great at keeping the humidity level low in the house due to the long run time on 1 st stage ,they are great for comfort .

I've read many complaints about the XL16i having problems maintaining low humidity and I was hoping the Xl20i wouldn't have similar issues. Granted, those complaints may be due to improper installation/setup, but I'm glad to hear your comments on the XL20i. Thanks!

[Florida Joy]

Actually I see this all the time. It's a closing trick. "you don't need all that, sign here, save some money."

Its only later that homeowners realize saving a few hundred dollars on a fifteen year decision can be really stupid.

Extra money spent on better is shortly forgotten just as money saved on cheaper is. Missing critical features are painfully remembered for the life of the decision.

The cheapo, quick-sign-here contractors that tried to sell me their bottom of the line Comfortmakers and Tempstars were dismissed in my mind before they were out the door, along with the Carrier guy who tried to sell me a Performance Series p/n combo that turned out to be a Comfort Series per the Carrier website. The two remaining bidders have made it clear it's up to me to decide between the various basic/good/better/best Trane options, since I've settled on Trane as the most durable/reliable/cost effective brand for my heat pump needs.

However, they both pointed out that the fall factory rebates make it easier to choose the "best" Trane (XL20i), if my budget will allow. Neither is pressuring me to buy one or the other. But...a $ difference between the basic 3.5 ton XB 14 (15 SEER) and the best 4 ton XL20i (17.75 SEER) is substantial and makes me wonder if there's any difference in comfort that would justify the extra expense.... or if the difference in energy consumption would pay back the extra investment over the 10-12 year lifespan of the equipment.

Your thoughts?

[vstech]

The 20 gives you two advantages. one, the 2 ton compressor will handle middle loads, and the 4 will only come on once the 2 reaches it's switch out point. so, the 4 NEVER sees massive loads that will overtax itself. so the compressor has substantially less work to do. sensible or HUMIDITY is the bane of a compressor load. heavy humidity causes massive heat input to the refrigerant, without the cooling effect of chilled refrigerant, so the standard compressor has to fight all the humidity to lower the temp in your home. the low stage compressor will run to maintain humidity and light cooling loads, and the 4 will have a much easier time lowering the temp and raising the comfort in your home.

this all boils down to low energy bills, long system life, and increased comfort. $ sounds like a lot. and I do not know if the energy savings will pay out over the install life, but the system will last, and the comfort will be impressive (assuming quality installation of course) and you will certainly have much lower energy bills! also, the 4 ton compressor will be able to handle those not so rare days that are well above the design temp!
I vote for the 20

[Florida Joy]

It might be helpful for you to advise as to why XL20i is better.

S.T.

Yes, I'd like to know if the extra $ for the XL20i (17.75 SEER) 4 ton over the XB14 (15 SEER) 3.5 ton is worth it. Energy consumption (electric bill) and equipment lifespan are both very important. I would expect comfort levels to be similar with either. But what do I know about comfort? I've lived with leaky, inefficient, poorly designed equipment throughout the past 40 years of moving all over the US, Central America and the Far East, so anything that "maintains" 75 degrees and 50% or less RH would keep me comfortable!