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  1. #40
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    Calgary, Alberta
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    I really think its horrible you think that you're better than others because you're a republican. $h!tting on everyone else that doesn't agree with you is just about the opposite of intelligence.
    A starter man than I once said that wisdom is the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it.


    I'd also like to post a correction to the above post.
    Canada's VAT is 5%, that IS the GST. that is the national sales tax. Not on top of anything else.
    The province I live in has no additional sales tax, others do.
    Don't most states have sales tax? Government requires money to pave roads, provide police and fire, and provide you with clean water.

  2. #41
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    Sep 2005
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    Atlanta GA area
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    We need to remember something as we discuss, disagree, and argue on how to run govts:

    NOTHING IS EVER FREE! Literally EVERYTHING a govt provides, has to be PAID FOR! It is a zero sum game; If a govt provides a service, the $$$ to pay for that service MUST come from somewhere. And guess what: There is ONLY ONE PLACE govts can get $$$ (to pay for things) from: TAXES. So:

    Everything that anyone gets from the govt, is paid for with TAX money. And that tax $$$ comes out of your and my pockets. So as we keep trying to say: NOTHING IS FREE.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  3. #42
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    We need to remember something as we discuss, disagree, and argue on how to run govts:

    NOTHING IS EVER FREE! Literally EVERYTHING a govt provides, has to be PAID FOR! It is a zero sum game; If a govt provides a service, the $$$ to pay for that service MUST come from somewhere. And guess what: There is ONLY ONE PLACE govts can get $$$ (to pay for things) from: TAXES. So:

    Everything that anyone gets from the govt, is paid for with TAX money. And that tax $$$ comes out of your and my pockets. So as we keep trying to say: NOTHING IS FREE.
    And that is why I am in favor of our health care system warts and all. It is cheaper than one driven by insurance companies. Whether the money goes to the government or the insurance company it still comes out of my pocket.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  4. #43
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    Jul 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    And that is why I am in favor of our health care system warts and all. It is cheaper than one driven by insurance companies. Whether the money goes to the government or the insurance company it still comes out of my pocket.
    Exactly,

    A lot of us in the US pay taxes to a gov. that uses our money to give free health care to others while we can't afford the same thing for ourselves. It makes absolutely no sense. If part of my taxes are going to be used for health care why shouldn't I get any benefit from it too. The only ones who benefit are the insurance co.s & medical profession since they couldn't get any money from those people anyways.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    An engineer designs what he would never work on.
    A technician works on what he would never design.

  5. #44
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    And that is why I am in favor of our health care system warts and all. It is cheaper than one driven by insurance companies. Whether the money goes to the government or the insurance company it still comes out of my pocket.
    Personally, I think you are deceived of the facts... however that is a different thread.

    I do take HUGE offense to someone forcing me into a single program to finance someone else's helathcare out of my pocket... that is, one I do not choose. Herein lies the beauty of competition.

    Personally, I belong to a Christian organization that shares each other's medical expenses. We are a LOT more thrifty than either the ins world or the govt (including YOUR govt). We agree to not finance recreational drug issues, we do not finance pregnancies outside marriage, and we do not finance issues resulting from lifestyles not in line with Scripture. And the so called 'do gooders' want to take this freedom of choice away from me, force me to pay more than I should, and tell me what they think is moral (take a look around and tell me what the govt approves of is moral). All so they can finance folks doing things they should not be doing, and in the process buy votes. There is this magic thing called personal responsibility; which happens when someone has NO SAFETY NET for their irresponsible choices... and I see NO reason I should be forced to pay for those irresponsible choices. Let the folks making the bad decisions live with their choices... they will not make them again. If they do... well that will improve the gene pool... the way it works in mother nature.

    If the govt is the sole provider, then I have to pay TWICE! Once in my program, and a second time with a program I will not be receiving benefits from. Tell me what is in that for me, and why I should be FORCED to be part of that program?

    And while you are at it... please address the 'one size fits all' issue, as well as the waiting list issue (please do not deny the waiting list, it is too well documented, even here at H-talk). And for the supporters of Obamacare... please address the so called 'death panel'... which IS IN the bill.

    No, there is not adequate freedom in any govt health care system. And since the USA is about freedom, then a govt health care system is not a good thing here. If you like it, that is your business... however please do not encourage or force it on me and my country.

    OR, to put it a different way: I am too independent natured and self reliant to live as a slave to whatever the whims of crooked polecats are this week. Remember: They do NOT care about you, they care about their careers. And they will lie to your face to grow those careers. The solution is to LIMIT their power, not increase it.

    There are LOTS of solutions to healthcare WITHOUT govt running the show. It just takes a little more effort to find them. Wonder what is wrong with that extra effort?
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Something of interest:

    Since my Dad died in mid July... I am receiving all kinds of medical bills... never happened before.

    I asked the estate attorney, she said: 'They are trying to use your grief to slide through non-applicable charges. What you need to do is require them to document and prove EVERY CHARGE they bill towards you. It will take LOTS of work, however it is your estate $$$ at stake.' Then she asked me a pointed question: 'How much of that estate $$$ do you want to give away to a crooked system and how much effort do you want to exert to keeping it?'

    So YES, the system is corrupt. However:

    Someone needs to explain to me how letting the govt run it is gonna improve that corruption? Seems to me with the $7000 hammers and $5000 bolts in the military; how about the endless $$$ (literally trillions) given to alternative energy upstarts, most of which are bankrupt and did not produce long term jogs; the endless waste in food stamps and welfare; and the common (and documented) personal expenses govt employees seem to endlessly charge to us taxpayers... Seems to me the FACTS suggest giving control of ANYTHING to the govt is kinda like encouraging corruption. And as noted in a previous post: Guess who pays for that corruption: You got it: Taxpayers... which includes all of us. So how does it feel to pay for corruption? At least with a private system, we get to choose the method of corruption... with a 'one shoe fits all' system, we get ONE system of corruption shoved down our throats... and the history of our country suggests it is the MOST wasteful of all systems. Anyone want to argue with history?

    Do any of you 'pro Obamacare' folks really think the govt will do a better job? Or is this all about how much can I get at someone else (taxypayer) expense? If the latter is even .01% of the argument... lets remember: If I can get something at someone else's expense... that means someone else can get something at MY expense... Or lets put this another way: If I can freeload at someone else's expense, then someone else can freeload at my expense... whoops... do you REALLY want that?

    The solution IMO is to have a system which does not tolerate freeloading... which will never happen as long as the potential for a polecat to buy votes is there. In a TRUE free enterprise (private) system; there are lots of providers, and the cdonsumer gets to choose. If I do not like the way one provider treats me, then I choose another. And guess what happens: The 'bad' providers loose business and the 'good' providers gain business. Not any more complicated than shopping between Kroger or Publix or Safeway or FoodLion for groceries... or between Home Depot and Lowes for household goods.
    MeThinks we as consumers have gotten lazy and want/expect someone else to figure it out for us. Well IMO that lazyness should be rewarded with not getting the best deal. This is just part of freedom, one must EXERCISE it if they want to keep it... as simple as muscles, they grow weak and uselsee if one does not use them...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  7. #46
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    Jul 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Personally, I think you are deceived of the facts... however that is a different thread.

    I do take HUGE offense to someone forcing me into a single program to finance someone else's helathcare out of my pocket... that is, one I do not choose. ....................................
    The problem is we are doing that now & there is no way around it. As long as there is any government help for the poor the indigent, the disabled, the elderly etc. we are forced to pay for them through our taxes. I don't have a problem with my taxes going to help a disabled vet or some 90 year old who can't get around, I even take pride in my country for doing it. I do have a problem paying for a bunch of dead beats or illegal aliens. One of the problems is where to draw the distinction between a hard worker who is down & out on their luck, got laid off, can't find a decent paying job or a dead beat lazy bum. Its just safer to help everyone so no one falls through the cracks. The system is already in place & it works. Medicare for everyone, for all ages.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    An engineer designs what he would never work on.
    A technician works on what he would never design.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    The problem is we are doing that now & there is no way around it. As long as there is any government help for the poor the indigent, the disabled, the elderly etc. we are forced to pay for them through our taxes. I don't have a problem with my taxes going to help a disabled vet or some 90 year old who can't get around, I even take pride in my country for doing it. I do have a problem paying for a bunch of dead beats or illegal aliens. One of the problems is where to draw the distinction between a hard worker who is down & out on their luck, got laid off, can't find a decent paying job or a dead beat lazy bum. Its just safer to help everyone so no one falls through the cracks. The system is already in place & it works. Medicare for everyone, for all ages.
    Lets not get into an argument... however:

    IMO what we have is a HUGE way away from anything resembling 'working'.

    The elderly, the poor, the indigent... need to go to their family or to a mission or to a church. It worked for thousands of years... The only thing wrong today is they are too proud to ask for help in public.

    The system is CORRUPT! and corruption never works, except for lining the pockets of the corrupt leaders.

    What is wrong IMO is the fact in the previous sentence does not motivate folks to CHANGE the system. Until it does... corruption will GROW, and we will end up with less and less. The pitiful thing is: we will think (wrongly) we are better off. Shame, this USED to be a great country, until mediocrity set in.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Helena, Montana
    Posts
    2,132
    Hey Printer, I'm with you on the consumption tax. The problem we have is that it would be an addition to our existing taxes and not a replacement as it should be. Our govs, State and Fed, do not want to give up any means of taxation.
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  10. #49
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    Feb 2009
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    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Personally, I think you are deceived of the facts... however that is a different thread.
    I do not understand what part I do not understand but I will let it slide for another time.

    I do take HUGE offense to someone forcing me into a single program to finance someone else's helathcare out of my pocket... that is, one I do not choose. Herein lies the beauty of competition.
    Which is fine, all I am saying is that our county's health care bill is much less than yours for the pretty much the same outcomes.

    Personally, I belong to a Christian organization that shares each other's medical expenses. We are a LOT more thrifty than either the ins world or the govt (including YOUR govt). We agree to not finance recreational drug issues, we do not finance pregnancies outside marriage, and we do not finance issues resulting from lifestyles not in line with Scripture. And the so called 'do gooders' want to take this freedom of choice away from me, force me to pay more than I should, and tell me what they think is moral (take a look around and tell me what the govt approves of is moral). All so they can finance folks doing things they should not be doing, and in the process buy votes. There is this magic thing called personal responsibility; which happens when someone has NO SAFETY NET for their irresponsible choices... and I see NO reason I should be forced to pay for those irresponsible choices. Let the folks making the bad decisions live with their choices... they will not make them again. If they do... well that will improve the gene pool... the way it works in mother nature.
    OK

    If the govt is the sole provider, then I have to pay TWICE! Once in my program, and a second time with a program I will not be receiving benefits from. Tell me what is in that for me, and why I should be FORCED to be part of that program?
    Why could not the money collected from you go to your organization, why would you have to pay twice? I have a hospital on the end of my street that has always been religious oriented hospital. It gets most of its funding from the government but it has never performed things that went against what they stood for (like abortions).

    And while you are at it... please address the 'one size fits all' issue, as well as the waiting list issue (please do not deny the waiting list, it is too well documented, even here at H-talk). And for the supporters of Obamacare... please address the so called 'death panel'... which IS IN the bill.
    One size fits all. We take the approach that we are all created equal. Who gets what treatment is based on need not desire. We have doctors that perform procedures and they make the most use of their time scheduling people on a first come first served basis except when the need for one patient is greater than the other. Then the patient with the greatest need gets put in front of the others would be less farter along with their ailment. Deny waiting lists? Heck I have documented them here a number of times when they come up for discussion. I have given the link to our government waiting list page. If you want more info on our waiting lists,

    http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/faq.html

    And wait times for important procedures.

    http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/index.html

    And as far as the death panels (since I skimmed through the Obamacare bill when it was only 900 pages long) could you please give the sections of the bill that was passed on death panels? I found some passages on palliative care but no actual death panel guidelines. Mind you that might have been included in the final bill. And while you are at it, how does the private insurance industry weigh who gets a procedure and who does not? Or do they just write a blank check?

    No, there is not adequate freedom in any govt health care system. And since the USA is about freedom, then a govt health care system is not a good thing here. If you like it, that is your business... however please do not encourage or force it on me and my country.
    Back to my previous posts, I have not tried to persuade people intro doing one thing or the other. I just give information on how things are up here and what I think about it. I would think you are all grown ups and can discus what you feel is right and the way you think your country should go. Also you probably realize that not everyone feels the same way as you do but that they have just as much right to their opinion as you do.

    OR, to put it a different way: I am too independent natured and self reliant to live as a slave to whatever the whims of crooked polecats are this week. Remember: They do NOT care about you, they care about their careers. And they will lie to your face to grow those careers. The solution is to LIMIT their power, not increase it.

    There are LOTS of solutions to healthcare WITHOUT govt running the show. It just takes a little more effort to find them. Wonder what is wrong with that extra effort?
    Nothing wrong with a little effort. But the first step is to discuss the options. Kind of like what goes on here.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    Hey Printer, I'm with you on the consumption tax. The problem we have is that it would be an addition to our existing taxes and not a replacement as it should be. Our govs, State and Fed, do not want to give up any means of taxation.
    When we introduced the GST manufacturers were paying a tax to the government on goods that they made or imported. This hidden tax was removed and placed on the products we buy (although there were many things, like food that were except) but the rate that was chosen was picked to be revenue neutral. In the end it was in slight favor toward the government and they used the money to pay down our debt.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  12. #51
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    I do not understand what part I do not understand but I will let it slide for another time.

    Which is fine, all I am saying is that our county's health care bill is much less than yours for the pretty much the same outcomes.



    OK



    Why could not the money collected from you go to your organization, why would you have to pay twice? I have a hospital on the end of my street that has always been religious oriented hospital. It gets most of its funding from the government but it has never performed things that went against what they stood for (like abortions).



    One size fits all. We take the approach that we are all created equal. Who gets what treatment is based on need not desire. We have doctors that perform procedures and they make the most use of their time scheduling people on a first come first served basis except when the need for one patient is greater than the other. Then the patient with the greatest need gets put in front of the others would be less farter along with their ailment. Deny waiting lists? Heck I have documented them here a number of times when they come up for discussion. I have given the link to our government waiting list page. If you want more info on our waiting lists,

    http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/faq.html

    And wait times for important procedures.

    http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/index.html

    And as far as the death panels (since I skimmed through the Obamacare bill when it was only 900 pages long) could you please give the sections of the bill that was passed on death panels? I found some passages on palliative care but no actual death panel guidelines. Mind you that might have been included in the final bill. And while you are at it, how does the private insurance industry weigh who gets a procedure and who does not? Or do they just write a blank check?



    Back to my previous posts, I have not tried to persuade people intro doing one thing or the other. I just give information on how things are up here and what I think about it. I would think you are all grown ups and can discus what you feel is right and the way you think your country should go. Also you probably realize that not everyone feels the same way as you do but that they have just as much right to their opinion as you do.



    Nothing wrong with a little effort. But the first step is to discuss the options. Kind of like what goes on here.
    Not worth my time to argue... I laid out some issues... your answers indicate you either did not even read my ideas, or you do not care to understand them. Either way... I have tired of discussing with someone that does not want to learn and grow.

    MeThinks it is time to leave ARP again... and discuss with folks at the other forums I frequent. The folks here are not interested in learning or growing... they just want to behave like children.

    Bye.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  13. #52
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Not worth my time to argue... I laid out some issues... your answers indicate you either did not even read my ideas, or you do not care to understand them. Either way... I have tired of discussing with someone that does not want to learn and grow.

    MeThinks it is time to leave ARP again... and discuss with folks at the other forums I frequent. The folks here are not interested in learning or growing... they just want to behave like children.

    Bye.
    You laid out some issues, I answered each one in turn. Where is the argument? The questions that you listed are valid and I gave answers on how we do things. I am willing to learn and grow but do not see where my answers suggest that I do not. You ask me about wait times and lists, I give you up to the date information on how long they are (you did look at the link, right?). You asked on one size fits all health care, I gave how it is delivered. You were concerned about costs, I gave another option on how hospitals can be funded. What more do you want?
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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