Capacitors! Yikes!

[hvacmike85]

I read somewhere that if you gang up caps if you don't have the right size to get the correct capacitance then you are actually better off because of more surface area to dissipate the heat.
But there never seems to be enough room in the smaller condensers.

Good theory, i worry if one dies the unit runs starving for that juice and ends up burning up instead of just quitting when its blown (single cap)

[ICanHas]

Where do you get the idea that voltage drops are causing it? Do you guys have any data showing higher failure rate at apartment complexes and light commercial than houses?

They get 208Y/120v service and run the compressor on 208v.
There are 200v motors meant for 208v service and 230v motors for 240v, but most are 208/230 approved, so apartment complex condensing units are running dual rated compressors at 208v nominal.

Single houses get 120/240 and run on 240v.

Condensing units are almost always rated 208-230 and its a sure bet that 240v service seldom drop below 208v.

[hurtinhvac]

Swelled caps sometimes three calls in a row. More and more CF motors and now blower caps as well (two this week). Heat and continued use. I am only carrying 440 where possible. The left hand side of my truck quickly becomes a graveyard of swollen, leaking caps and I like to point them out to the hovering HO who just got hit with a $ bill for trip and a new cap.

It is to the point, on that last call of the day (the one where they say "the outside fan is not spinning and pumping cold air"), I'll walk up and hold my breath as I grab my long skinny screw driver and give the fan blade a twirl. And let out a sigh of relief if it spins easy. Bad cap - home only a couple hours late.

We have not had a stretch like this in this area since the 30's.

BTW..you guys been seeing really...really high pressures while still maintaining decent SH and SC readings? I know very well the pressure temp. relationship - but...wow.

Interesting cooling season for a newer tech, if nothing else.

[anthonyac1]

i also stock only 440V last time i went to the motor supply house. after i was leaving i asked about capacitors they showed me run caps that are made in japan
it looks just like a start cap black and in a plastic housing with a tab to put a screw in it to hold it to the housing upon installation, they stressed how much better but wondering if anyone tried them out yet.

[fs1]

Here is a nice link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRi5WTntirY&feature=plcp for the guys who haven't been to/or its been a long time since schooling. About 7 minutes in is very helpful....Most of your questions are answered in this video......ENJOY

[midhvac]

Just hit me that during this heat wave, I've seen no failures of capacitors that are mounted through holes in the bottom of the electrical compartment, like on the Rheem & some other units i.e. the ones where the entire outer perimeter of the cap is down in the condenser area, where the condenser fan is pulling air across it.
Seems like more evidence that the heat is the culprit. It would also explain why it doesn't help to replace the combo ones with separate comp. & fan caps or parallel wire the caps. They'll still hit the same temp in the same location.

[mark beiser]

Good theory, i worry if one dies the unit runs starving for that juice and ends up burning up instead of just quitting when its blown (single cap)

I imagine the compressor would be a lot better off with an under value capacitor than, for instance, a compressor that has a bad run cap, but starts and runs anyway because it has a start kit.

Just hit me that during this heat wave, I've seen no failures of capacitors that are mounted through holes in the bottom of the electrical compartment, like on the Rheem & some other units i.e. the ones where the entire outer perimeter of the cap is down in the condenser area, where the condenser fan is pulling air across it.

While I believe this point has merit, I still find plenty of Rheem/Ruud units with bad caps.
It is actually quite annoying having them mounted like that, because it can be very difficult to get the capacitor out if it swells at all when it fails.
i've had to poke holes in capacitors to relieve the pressure so I could get them out of the mounting hole.

[Glennhvac]

Just hit me that during this heat wave, I've seen no failures of capacitors that are mounted through holes in the bottom of the electrical compartment, like on the Rheem & some other units i.e. the ones where the entire outer perimeter of the cap is down in the condenser area, where the condenser fan is pulling air across it.
Seems like more evidence that the heat is the culprit. It would also explain why it doesn't help to replace the combo ones with separate comp. & fan caps or parallel wire the caps. They'll still hit the same temp in the same location.

I think that may just be a matter of statistics as Rheem/Ruud are one of the very few units that I run across that mount them that way. If anything I would bet the ambient temp is higher in that location simply due to the fact you are adding heat from air pulled across the condensor.

[mike dixon]

hey hurtin,, i see you are in st louis, $ for a cap change out, my god, you must work for jerry kelly lol

[Glennhvac]

Here is a nice link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRi5WTntirY&feature=plcp for the guys who haven't been to/or its been a long time since schooling. About 7 minutes in is very helpful....Most of your questions are answered in this video......ENJOY

Great link! Thanks. I can see why those old caps that were bigger than house bricks lasted so long. Besides the fact that they were probably ten times the quality they also had far more surface area to shed heat. Might be why some of those 30+ year old Lennox units with three and four caps still have the originals.

[hurtinhvac]

hey hurtin,, i see you are in st louis, $ for a cap change out, my god, you must work for jerry kelly lol

No...I haven't screwed up that bad yet - but point taken.

I have to admit to wincing now and again as I fill out the bill.

"Our price book is based on a national average...blah...blah...blah...."

"It cost a fortune to have them on the truck and installed within a few hours...yada...yada...yada..."

'Bout how much do you get for a trip and...say a 40/5 440?

[timebuilder]

You guys realize that this is a open forum, right?

[hurtinhvac]

Crap! Emergency pricing edit please!!!???

[Glennhvac]

No...I haven't screwed up that bad yet - but point taken.

I have to admit to wincing now and again as I fill out the bill.

"Our price book is based on a national average...blah...blah...blah...."

"It cost a fortune to have them on the truck and installed within a few hours...yada...yada...yada..."

'Bout how much do you get for a trip and...say a 40/5 440?

Maybe you should throw a ski mask in the truck. Once for a joke with a long time fun client I walked back in with the bill wearing one of those old time black burglar eye masks you find in the odd ball stores.

[timebuilder]

Crap! Emergency pricing edit please!!!???

I asked the editing genie to come and help you out....

[midhvac]

I think that may just be a matter of statistics as Rheem/Ruud are one of the very few units that I run across that mount them that way. If anything I would bet the ambient temp is higher in that location simply due to the fact you are adding heat from air pulled across the condensor.

The caps are in the path of the air before it goes through the condenser.
I service several 8-plexes with those, and service a lot more because I installed that brand for several years. Haven't had any die during this heat wave - yet.

[tech45]

I've been using Turbo 200's on alot of stuff this year and they seem to be holding up. Last year I was having to do freebie return visits ( versus the year before where I was making bank on caps ). The Turbo's cost more , we charge more and knock on wood don't have to go back. I used to think that the price for these was unreasonable but not this year.

[techbill11]

those turbos are great they come with a 5 year warranty.Made by amrad which seems to be a top notch company.worked for a company that carried packards.Had such a high failure rate quit carrying them.Some failed after 6 months.

[hurtinhvac]

Now that a couple of you mention it, I don't seem to recall replacing many buried Rheem / Rudd caps. Which is a good thing for another reason apart from getting a swollen cap out of it's grave with those goofy screws that sit right on the lip: I have a hard time reading the specs on these caps during C&C's as the writing is exposed to the elements down below.

I've been slowly compiling a list of cap specs for every unit I open up - hoping to one day have a pretty good list of the most popular units so as to avoid calling the office or supply house - hate waiting on hold...breaks my rhythm.

Still looking for references in this regard if anyone has a link or suggestion?

[Glennhvac]

The caps are in the path of the air before it goes through the condenser.
I service several 8-plexes with those, and service a lot more because I installed that brand for several years. Haven't had any die during this heat wave - yet.

Oops you are right. I install the same units and forgot they are under the control box outside the coil. Thinking of another older unit.