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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    33
    I recently attended a discussion group at our local Community Collage concerning the new 13 SEER units the government has forced on us.

    The bone of contention was the "nominal BTU" the manufacturers are using to compute the 13 SEER. As all of you know the SEER is a ratio of the BTU output of a unit to its input in Watts (actually the SEER is a highbred of the EER which does not take into account the locked-rotor amps encountered at start and the number of start-ups per season, along with various other factors).

    It seems the A/C manufacturers cannot make a compressor that produce the 13 SEER under the old ratio criteria (without building a condenser the size of your backyard).

    So, what have they done? They have come up with the "nominl BTU." For example (using the simplier EER ratio) a 5-ton unit will produce 60,000 BTUs with an input of 5,000 Watts (20.8 Amps @ 240 VAC).

    But, in order to boost the EER up to 13 it would require a compressor that produces 60,000 BTUs with just 19.2 Amps. And such a compressor has not yet been developed. The answer is the "nominal BTU." By fudging on the actul BTU output, the ratio can be manipulated into thinking it is actually putting out 60,000 BTUs when, in actualaty, it is only producing, say, 58,000 or 59,000 BTUs.

    So, what does our customer get for his money? A unit that puts out less cooling at the same (or more Wattage) and, therefore, must run longer to cool his home. Net results--no savings!

    Comments please (need I ask).

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,964
    You are wrong on several counts.

    First off; the government did not force our industry to manufacture 13 SEER equipment. The governmene simply made it mandatory that 13 SEER equipment be the minimum, a factor that was upheld by at least one of the major manufacturers of equipment.

    Next; nominal sizing has been around since the birth of the HVAC industry. This is not a SEER tool invented by the HVAC manufacturers, systems have been rated for nominal capacity as long as I have been in the trade (over 35 years).

    Also; equipment manufacturers don't "make" the compressors.

    Sorry, but your complaint is unfounded.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Memphis TN USA
    Posts
    6,969
    There are different rating conditions for capacity and SEER.
    Capacity is rated at maximum load: hot outside & warm inside.
    SEER is rated at more average conditions. You will get less efficency at maximum load.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    33
    RoBoTeq
    Spoken like a true and loyal tech rep.

    First, what is the difference (other than semantics) between the government making 13 SEERs mandatory and "forcing us to manufacture 13 SEERs as a minimum?"

    Second, nominal sizing has surely been around for a long time. The good ol' 2 x 4 is the quintessential example of how it is used to deceive the user. As we in the building trades all know, it is actually 1 1/2 x 3 1/2. The dictionary defines the word NOMINAL as: "Very small compared to usual expectations; slight", (Webster's New World Dictionary).

    Third, as to the division of labor in the manufacturing of air conditioning components, what does the fact that compressors are made by separate companies have to do with the price of tea in China? So are capicators, relays, contactors, etc.

    The basic question is: Does the 13 SEER use electrical power as efficiently to produce the "actual" BTUs required as does the 12 SEER?

  5. #5
    muanee money talks went from 8 seer to 14 seer system runs longer bills went down 35-40 percent that is REAL WORLD PROOF that they are more efficent and the book worm instructor you had does not know a thing you can call any of my customers that i upgraded and they will tell you the same thing

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    33
    Thomefan2579
    What brand(s) are you rerering to? And, the discussion also had factory reps.

  7. #7
    in my home i have amana in my dads i put in trane same savings different equipment my 14 seer amana and my dads 14 seer xl14i are both efficent and have given us 35-40 percent in savings over old. alot of other variables are duct work being properly sealed and refridgerent charge but with all things being equal a 14 seer will give you better efficency then a 10 seer any day of the week run time has very little to do with efficency look at your driving habits in the city when your sitting more and not moving constantly you get worse mileage then on the free way when your flying. also it wastes more elcticity to start a motor or a compressor then to let it go so longer run times equal less start ups which is a decrease in energy consumption

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,204
    Originally posted by munanee


    So, what does our customer get for his money? A unit that puts out less cooling at the same (or more Wattage) and, therefore, must run longer to cool his home. Net results--no savings!

    Comments please (need I ask).

    SEER is a ratio, if you have less cooling or more wattage the end result will still be the number your shooting for, it's a ratio, you can't change one number and it not effect the other.

    The ARI directory (where you look up SEER numbers) is not for equipment selection. Neither is equipment manufacturers generic product literature where you will find nominal sizing. Size your equipment based on Manual S, and you’ll find that you need the specific cut sheet for the equipment combo your looking at.

    I hope this session you attended was free, or you just misunderstood .
    Ed J

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,964
    Originally posted by munanee
    RoBoTeq
    Spoken like a true and loyal tech rep.

    First, what is the difference (other than semantics) between the government making 13 SEERs mandatory and "forcing us to manufacture 13 SEERs as a minimum?"
    Not just semantics at all. Manufacturer's were making 13 SEER equipmen long before it became mandatory, therefore, the government most certainly did not force us to manufacture 13 SEER.

    Forget semantics; learn comprehension and stop trying to make comments seem to fit your agenda.
    Second, nominal sizing has surely been around for a long time. The good ol' 2 x 4 is the quintessential example of how it is used to deceive the user. As we in the building trades all know, it is actually 1 1/2 x 3 1/2. The dictionary defines the word NOMINAL as: "Very small compared to usual expectations; slight", (Webster's New World Dictionary).
    Deceive How?! For crying out loud; you don't hear carpenters crying over the less wood in 2x's, do you? No one is being deceived when all information is put right out in the open for all to see.

    How about some kind of comparison as to what you are complaining about?

    Third, as to the division of labor in the manufacturing of air conditioning components, what does the fact that compressors are made by separate companies have to do with the price of tea in China? So are capicators, relays, contactors, etc.

    The basic question is: Does the 13 SEER use electrical power as efficiently to produce the "actual" BTUs required as does the 12 SEER?
    The basic question is; can you ask a question without distorting all of the facts about the data that you are complaining about? If you don't mean to refer to HVAC equipment manufactures, then get it right as to which manufacturer you are referring to.

    Just what is your complaint?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    112

    Post

    So I guess what Munanee is really trying to say is this?

    The Matter is not, that if the Manufacturers were already making 13 Seer Equipment. But if the customer is really, really getting what the Goverment and "at least a major Manufacturers of Equipment" are make them to pay for.

    To get 13 Seer or whatever Seer efficiency! There are alot of variables in the equation!

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