Is this system NOT putting out proper BTU?!?

[Thardwick]

I installed a new Am. standard 2 ton 410A system, single stage 65k BTU firnace and cased txv coil. It runs non stop and rarely satisfies the stat on a 975 sf ranch home with no basement. Check out these measurements, any clues?

Ambient air temp: 99 deg
Suction 150 PSIG. 68 degrees with 13 degree superheat
Liquid 377 PSIG. 101 degrees with 12 degree subcool

Compressor drawing 13 amps

Dry bulb temps: return 77.6 deg
Supply 61.8 deg
Wet bulb temps: return 68.5 deg
Supply 61.3 deg (all averages!)

What the heck am I missing?! Is there WAY less insulation in the walls or is this unit just not producing?? Oh, and these temps are with the fan speed set to LOW! Replaced the TXV and factory said we are moving too much air over the coil lol!? Really? Too much return air? Any help will be greatly appreciated!

[udarrell]

I installed a new Am. standard 2 ton 410A system, single stage 65k BTU furnace and cased txv coil. It runs non stop and rarely satisfies the stat on a 975 sf ranch home with no basement. Check out these measurements, any clues?

Ambient air temp: 99 deg
Suction 150 PSIG. 68 degrees with 13 degree superheat
Liquid 377 PSIG. 101 (?)degrees(?) with 12 degree subcool

Compressor drawing 13 amps (around 8-amps for those conditions; what is its amp Rating?)

Dry bulb temps: return 77.6 deg
Supply 61.8 deg
Wet bulb temps: return 68.5 deg
Supply 61.3 deg (all averages!)

What the heck am I missing?! Is there WAY less insulation in the walls or is this unit just not producing?? Oh, and these temps are with the fan speed set to LOW! Replaced the TXV and factory said we are moving too much air over the coil lol!? Really? Too much return air? Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Okay, 377-psig condensing pressure is 112.5-F; not 101-F(?). What was the temp of the liquid line?
Therefore 112.5-F CT with an (?)89-F(?) liquid line is 23.5-F subcooling which would be way too high; indicating an overcharge. (This could be be wrong, as I don't know how you figured the subcooling???)

Well, the indoor humidity seems to be around 63.5%.

Okay, @ sea level, using the SA/RA wet bulb temps & my text's enthalpy table; 5.14 enthalpy change:
@ 700-cfm I get 16,191-Btuh
@ 800-cfm = 18,504-Btuh
@900-cfm = 20,817-Btuh
This a 2-Ton 13-SEER System; @80-F indoors; 63.5% Relative Humidity, @800-CFM the unit should be delivering around 23,000-Btuh

I believe the system may be only 'delivering' around 700-CFM airflow (needs to be checked), plus there may be excessive losses in the duct system & the unit has to have the proper CFM before it can be charged properly.

[beenthere]

Okay, 377-psig condensing pressure is 112.5-F; not 101-F(?). What was the temp of the liquid line?
Therefore 112.5-F CT with an (?)89-F(?) liquid line is 23.5-F subcooling which would be way too high; indicating an overcharge. (This could be be wrong, as I don't know how you figured the subcooling???)

He's posting line temp, not sat temp.

[Thardwick]

The temps I listed are the line temps.

[udarrell]

He's posting line temp, not sat temp.

Thanks, that resolves that misread by me I thought he was listing the CST.

Also, I read the 61.3 as 61.8 (vision problems, the 3 looked like an 8; it was late last night & the lighting was not good enough; so that changes the Btuh.

Therefore, the enthalpy difference is 5.24 which raises the Btuh a little.

Okay, @ sea level, using the SA/RA wet bulb temps & my text's enthalpy table; 5.24 enthalpy change:
@ 700-cfm I get 16,506-Btuh
@ 800-cfm = 19,440-Btuh
@900-cfm = 21,222-Btuh

They need to know close to what the CFM of airflow is through the coil.

Example: a 2-Ton 13-SEER System; @95-F outdoor-temp; @80-F DB, 71-WB indoors or 64% Relative Humidity, @800-CFM the unit should be delivering around +24,000-Btuh; 397-psig = 112.8-CST minus 10-F subcooling is a 102.8-F liquid-line.

What is the subcooling-temp supposed to be for that system?

[Thardwick]

It's a 15 SEER
Recomended subcooling temp is 10 +/- 3 degrees

[cboe]

Whats your TD across the evaporater?

[udarrell]

Whats your TD across the evaporator?

I installed a new Am. standard 2 ton [15-SEER] 410A system, single stage 65k BTU furnace and cased TXV coil. It runs non stop and rarely satisfies the stat on a 975 sf ranch home with no basement. Check out these measurements, any clues?

Ambient air temp: 99 deg
Suction 150 PSIG. 68 degrees with 13 degree superheat
Liquid 377 PSIG. [Liquid-Line] 101 degrees with 12 degree subcool

Compressor drawing 13 amps

*Dry bulb temps: return 77.6 deg
*Supply 61.8 deg
Temp-drop or split: 15.8-F
So, what is the indoor airflow CFM & the percent of relative humidity?

Wet bulb temps: return 68.5 deg
Supply 61.3 deg (all averages!)

Is that the temp-drop U wanted?

[Shophound]

I installed a new Am. standard 2 ton 410A system, single stage 65k BTU firnace and cased txv coil. It runs non stop and rarely satisfies the stat on a 975 sf ranch home with no basement. Check out these measurements, any clues?

Ambient air temp: 99 deg
Suction 150 PSIG. 68 degrees with 13 degree superheat
Liquid 377 PSIG. 101 degrees with 12 degree subcool

Compressor drawing 13 amps

Dry bulb temps: return 77.6 deg
Supply 61.8 deg
Wet bulb temps: return 68.5 deg
Supply 61.3 deg (all averages!)

What the heck am I missing?! Is there WAY less insulation in the walls or is this unit just not producing?? Oh, and these temps are with the fan speed set to LOW! Replaced the TXV and factory said we are moving too much air over the coil lol!? Really? Too much return air? Any help will be greatly appreciated!

What was the outdoor ambient air temp when you recorded the above?

At 150 psig, your saturated vapor temp is running around 53 degrees. This means the evaporator coil temperature is probably about five or more degrees warmer than that. Not cold enough to get the house air dew point temperature below 55 degrees, which is what you want (and which is why it would be good if more techs measured dew point...right away you'd get some idea something's wrong somewhere).

How to explain the system's meager performance? Look around. Where is the air handler located? In an attic? And if so, is it pulling in hot air from the attic through duct leakage, or a door on the air handler not sealing correctly?

Are the ducts also in the attic? If so, any of them leaking? Supply duct leaks will cause a house to go negative pressure to outdoors and draw in hot, humid air through the building envelope. Return duct leaks will put too much load on the system. Combine them together and you have double trouble, since supply quantities will almost always outstrip return leak quantities, due to the sheer surface area of supply ducting vs. return ducting.

[Thardwick]

Sorry I forgot to list a couple things. Outdoor temp was 99 degrees at time of these readings. Also low speed on the unit is 1050cfm. Nothing but minor air loss in the supply ducts and the return in in the attic. For troubleshooting we have even closed off the attic return and are using a temp central return until we resolve this install. It's an American standard 95 furnace, coil, and 15 SEER matching system.

[udarrell]

What was the outdoor ambient air temp when you recorded the above?

At 150 psig, your saturated vapor temp is running around 53 degrees. This means the evaporator coil temperature is probably about five or more degrees warmer than that. Not cold enough to get the house air dew point temperature below 55 degrees, which is what you want (and which is why it would be good if more techs measured dew point...right away you'd get some idea something's wrong somewhere).

How to explain the system's meager performance? Look around. Where is the air handler located? In an attic? And if so, is it pulling in hot air from the attic through duct leakage, or a door on the air handler not sealing correctly?

Are the ducts also in the attic? If so, any of them leaking? Supply duct leaks will cause a house to go negative pressure to outdoors and draw in hot, humid air through the building envelope.

Return duct leaks will put too much load on the system. Combine them together and you have double trouble, since supply quantities will almost always outstrip return leak quantities, due to the sheer surface area of supply ducting vs. return ducting.

An absolute bullseye impact point as usual Shophound.

In long times past we had over capacity compressors & no oversized coils, many times even under a heavy heatload conditions those larger capacity compressors would pull those evaporators down to around 64 to 66-psig, that's a 37-F & 38-F saturation temp-coil, if U add 5-F to the coil that will be well below the dew point &, when sized right, many were way oversized also to the ductwork design,they did the job on high humidity situations.

That is why many up-size a half ton or so & don't go with the oversized indoor coils, plus with a TXV metering device, going to 350-or even less CFM per-ton of cooling, so the coil gets enough below the dew point.

[Shophound]

Sorry I forgot to list a couple things. Outdoor temp was 99 degrees at time of these readings. Also low speed on the unit is 1050cfm. Nothing but minor air loss in the supply ducts and the return in in the attic. For troubleshooting we have even closed off the attic return and are using a temp central return until we resolve this install. It's an American standard 95 furnace, coil, and 15 SEER matching system.

Is the air handler also in the attic? Being a 95 furnace, I'm thinking closet installation inside the house, since you stated in your OP there is no basement. No crawl space, either...house is slab on grade?

"Minor air loss"...how did you reach that conclusion?

Are all the supply boots sealed to the ceiling drywall?

[Thardwick]

It's in a utility room and on a crawl space. We inspected EACH run and trunk... No, the boots at the floor aren't caulked and not every joint is taped but there are no holes in the ducts or runs. I know, not very specific sorry. We are a carrier dealer. However, with the location of the furnace our width was VERY limited. The homeowner has to squeeze between the furnace and dryer to do laundry and at the time of furnace install carrier didn't have a design with flue pipes thru the top, now they do! I think an "M" coil would be much better? Again tho, width is a factor. We did find today that they are siding the house. It's an older ranch style and there is virtually NO insulation in the walls! I think we may have found our problem? I still don't think this system is performing the way it was designed to...

[hvacvegas]

It's in a utility room and on a crawl space. We inspected EACH run and trunk... No, the boots at the floor aren't caulked and not every joint is taped but there are no holes in the ducts or runs. I know, not very specific sorry. We are a carrier dealer. However, with the location of the furnace our width was VERY limited. The homeowner has to squeeze between the furnace and dryer to do laundry and at the time of furnace install carrier didn't have a design with flue pipes thru the top, now they do! I think an "M" coil would be much better? Again tho, width is a factor. We did find today that they are siding the house. It's an older ranch style and there is virtually NO insulation in the walls! I think we may have found our problem? I still don't think this system is performing the way it was designed to...

My 2.5 ton maintains 70* at 100*, 1250 sqft, no insulation, with a basement, masonry walls all the way up. Plenty of windows. 2 floors.

By the way, your moving 525 cfm per ton, according to your 1050. A tad high. It is possible to have to much air across the coil.
Which makes sense for your delta T.

I doubt low speed for a 60k is 2.5 tons of air though.