Professional Member
I get this question all the time from customers and I give them the advice that I use for myself. I recommend setting back besides hp's with electric backup during heating.
I turn my stat up to 85 in the morn when I leave for work and drop it down to 68 when I get home. My reasoning is, its not running all day costing money and as long as you dont mind dealing with the heat for a while after you get home, this is the least clostly mode of operation. Not to mention the system runs non stop for hrs at peak efficiency instead of cycling all day, drawing start current and running for 5-10 mins before the refrigerant balances out.
Same for heat. The furnace is more efficient after the heat exchanger has had time to warm up. So setting it back and turning it up when u get home should be the best option as well... right?
I feel confident in my reasoning but want to ask more experienced techs if Im right or wrong. For my own sake and for the sake of all the customers who ask my advice.
Professional Member*
Really, it all depends on the home's tightness. If it is a tight, well insulated home, then it probably doesn't matter, as there is likely to not be a lot of 'catch-up' waste. However, if the home has a lot of loss/heat gain, then it may end up using more energy maintaining during the day than it would to get it back to comfortable level after work.
Professional Member*
I do 85 during the day... 75 F (starting like 5 minutes before people come home)... 78 F while sleeping and morning.
You can call me Sam
It should be a crime to be a mechanical engineer in San Diego
Summer Design Temperature: 83 F Dry Bulb ~ 69 F Wet Bulb (California Climate Zone 7)
Professional Member*
Theory 1: Setback does save money, but not as much as correctly sizing equipment to begin with. Quick recovery means your unit is too big, so setback for now and replace with smaller equipment when the time comes.
Theory 2: More utilities are going to time of use rates where power is more expensive during times of peak demand. In our area going warmer from 2-7 weekdays will has the biggest effect on your bill since that's when power is most expensive.
Professional Member*
As far as AC setbacks go, there's no general answer to that, because the number of variables is mind boggling. The ones mentioned in this thread are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to pick a precise, specific scenario.
And the energy savings must be weighed against the disadvantages.
Professional Member
I can't speak for the cooling side, but on the heat side setting temps back more than a few degrees, maybe 4-5, does not decrease operating costs. As objects in the heated area cool off, they reach a point where they seem to act as chillers when the system is trying to come back to the higher temp. This can become an issue more so if the heating system has been properly sized. If there's a new, high efficiency system, setback may turn into a difference between comfort and cost.
Additionly, if the area in question is not well insulated the system may never catch up on very cold or windy days. In some cases folks do well to just stay even.
Professional Member*
+1 on both.Originally Posted by 54regcab
I'd also add, that if you do the math, that setback only saved you roughly 20% on your heat gain for that period. The "cost" of that setback instead of running your ac all afternoon at an average temprature of lets say 85F, is now running it during the hotest part of the day when it's least efficient so it's running at least 20% less efficient than if it had cycled all day.
Geothermal...yes, expecially one sized for heating load, absolutely use as much as your system can recover from in about 2 hours... although I'd monitor the ground water tmeps to see how much they rise during that time.
Furnace, yes, as much as it can recover from in 2-3 hours.
If you have a 2 stage AC, absolutely do not use setbacks. Cycling in low stage all afternoon is a LOT more efficeint than running for 1-2 hours straight on high stage in the heat of the day.
Personally, I setback just 1 F around 8AM, then drop the temp 1F at 9PM for sleeping. At night I setbakc my downstairs from 10PM to 5:30AM by 5F, then recover back to 76F, then set to 77F at 8AM, then 76F at 8PM again for relaxing and watching TV.
For my furnace in winter I setback downstairs at night by 8F (downstairs is way oversized) and upstairs by 2F (more for comfort). In the afternoon both are setback by only 3-4F.
Now just ot complicate matters further. Larger homes and expecially those with a lot fo thermal mass, often heat and cool off very slowly. In my house even when 100F outside will only gain about 3F upstairs from 8AM to 5PM. But it will also take 6-8 hours to recover. Heck we lost power for just 45 minutes last week and it took it 4 hours to recover the 1 F lost since it was well above design temperatures outside.
Professional Member*
Simplest way for them to find out if it's cost effective is to try it and log there electricity usage with setback and without setback. Pretty good programs out there for smartphone or computers that let you type your meter numbers in and get a daily report of how many KWH your using. I was just having my stat set at 76 all day long and my average KWH was 4.5 KWH and with setback I've dropped it to 2.8 KWH. BIG Difference considering I only use a degree or two setback, In the morning 7am I raise the temp to 77*; 10:30AM 78*; 7:30PM 77*; 9:30PM 76*
These numbers are 95+ to 105+ Degree days, haven't had any days lower than that lately. A/C use to run Non-Stop during the day at 76* but cycles decently at 78*
Professional Member*
I'm in with the a degree or two crowd. Reason being an average to tight home isn't going change temp more than 3-4 degrees in a 8-10 hour period even with the system off. A loose/poorly insulated house on the other hand will have wild swings and when you're at or near design temp it's not going to recover from that setback for many,many hours.
Professional Member*
I have the meter connect program and have done it both ways. Setback saves money for us. The loss of efficiency by running more during the hot part of the day is more than offset by the long run cycle time. The short cycles by leaving the A/C on all day cost more than the higher temperatures during the recovery period.
Professional Member
unless the system is way oversized setback does not work here
A couple of degrees is okay but if you turn it up to 85 during the day the unit will still run and not recover till probably midnight.
However setback works great with a furnace here because they are always oversized. I usually just leave mine off then heat the house up to 82 before bed and then shut the thing off the rest of the night
Professional Member
Mine doesnt catch up till after I go to sleep... but Idc cuz by the time it brings it down from 85 to 80 it feels good. Then it spends the rest of the evening bringing it down to 68.
Professional Member*
And with most programmable stats, there's the variable of whether or not you have the stat set to "automatically recover" from the setback, i.e. the "energy management" algorithm, where the stat decides how early the system must come back on to cool the house down to the programmed temp at the programmed time.
That feature is selected by default on the stats I sell. But it can be deselected.
Professional Member*
who the hell wants to wait for a system to recover while being uncomfortable? .. set it for what you like & leave it unless if you plan on going away for extended periods of time. im not one to figure the calculations but couldnt all that time during a hot pulldown every day cost considerably close to what a few cycles an hour would be when your at your desired setpoint during the day? .. i leave mine to cycle as needed & have very low utility bills. granted this is a building constructed in 2011 but still ....
Professional Member*
LOL, that's a huge part of the variables involved here. I have some customers that are willing to make that sacrifice in comfort to save x $ over the course of an entire cooling season. But those aren't the norm. And this is one reason I mentioned the "intelligent recovery" thing.
EVERYONE'S system is oversized during the vast majority of the cooling season. So they could be saving money the rest of the cooling season if they had an effective way of doing that. And there would be little or no loss in comfort level if the stat was smart enough to ensure it.
But as someone mentioned, some of the electric company's are starting to charge more per kWh during peak demand hours. And that obviously reduces the potential savings.
Professional Member*
Sounds like you should just keep it at 80 and be satisfied then...
Professional Member
Well, I think it has something to do with dehumidifying for 5 degrees that maked 80 feel okay. Plus the fact that theres cool air circulating. Cuz to just set it at 80 doesnt cut it for me.
I didnt realize what an open ended question this was. Lol.
Professional Member
And comfort wasnt my reason for asking. I was just wanting to know which was gonna cost less on the electric bill.
Professional Member
I wish I could afford to run mine at 68. Although I don't even know if it will cool that low
Professional Member*
If it was a simple yes or no answer, thermostats wouldn't have any adjustments in them, and they would all be set permanently at the 'right' setting.
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