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07-14-2012, 02:29 PM #1New Guest
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Can my mismatching problem end happily?
Hello! Thanks for reading my post. My Carrier system is actually about half York.
Summer, 2008 we bought a new Carrier Performance Series Energy Star heat pump system Carrier outside condenser model 25HPA542 rated 15 SEER, and inside, a Carrier coil model CNPVP4221 rated 14 SEER plus, a 5-year labor and 10-year parts warranty.
The system performed poorly from the start, failing to cool in hot southern weather, and our 2,145 sq. ft. house grew damp with mold around every AC register/vent; we bought a dehumidifier.
Recently, the TXV broke. Our new HVAC technician told us that the TXV and inside evaporator coil was a 13-SEER York model FC42C3XN1, not the Carrier we paid for, and obviously not covered by our 10-year warranty. We were unaware of this until the recent breakdown.
The original installer admits installing York parts but insists that the TXV is under warranty, and he said the York coil replaced the smaller Carrier coil to improve performance. Our new HVAC technician disputes this. He was told by the York distributor that the TXV (and coil) are not under warranty because they were installed into an unmatched system. We got a second opinion from another HVAC company, and the results were the same. We telephoned the distributor and got mixed messages.
Both diagnostic HVAC contractors have told us that in order to warranty their own repair, we must replace the 13-SEER York coil with a Carrier evaporator coil model CNVP2417ATA to match the outside component rather than replace the TXV and keep the York coil. Does this seem reasonable to you?
(Actually, the weather is terrible, and I had to act -- the York coil is out and replaced with Carrier evaporator coil CNVP2417ATA; my slew of warranties covered nothing, yet. For the first time in 4 years it is fully cool, unexpectedly quiet, and dry no dehumidifier needed.)
Please, I need some information and ideas:
How can I confirm in writing whether a York TXV (and coil) warranty is valid or voided by installation into an unmatched Carrier system? I wrote York; they havent replied.
Is the York evaporator coil inferior/cheaper than the first Carrier evaporator coil I paid for but didnt get? Are they comparable in performance?
Do any of them match the outside 15-SEER Carrier condenser model 25HPA542?
In you experience, have you known of mismatching units affecting Carrier warranties?
In your opinion, what would be my best move from here?
Thanks so much for sharing your expertise!
07-14-2012, 03:01 PM #2
I would think the York coil would have a 5 year parts warranty from date of install. That should have gotten the TXV replaced. As for labor, Carrier wouldn't pay but if the original installer bought an extended warranty from another source, like Equiguard, it should have.
I don't think too much of either coil but the York coil should not have been put on the Carrier. The 4221 is a match for the outdoor unit you have. Is there a Carrier variable speed blower involved with this system? If not, you are at 13.50 SEER.
Your beef is with the original installer who installed the York coil. What did the contract call for? We put "and matching coil" but may use a 3rd party that has an AHRI match. A York coil would not match a Carrier product. By law you should have been given a copy of the warranty. The 5 year labor is likely somebody's extended policy, found out whose.
I'd be surprised that the culprit to the earlier problems was solely the York coil. The TXV may have been bad all long, the system mischarged, blower speed wrong, but that coil should have functioned reasonably. Not 100% capacity and efficiency but not so far off to cause all of your grief. IMHO.
07-14-2012, 04:32 PM #3New Guest
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Thanks so much, BaldLoonie. You sound like you know what you are talking about.
I heard about the York 5-year warranty, but it was questionable whether it applied to a mismatched situation. I bought a 10-year warranty, but it was Carrier, not York. Maybe I should haul the York coil/TXV down to the distributor? It is sitting in my garage. Obviously, I would like to recover some expenses if I can. That is my hope!
You asked is Carrier variable speed blower involved with this system? Nope. A 13.5 SEER is disappointing to hear. We bought a 15 SEER system, so I thought we had 15 SEER.
The contract with the original installer who installed the York coil -- this is a quoted excerpt of what the contract called for, "Furnish and install Carrier brand Performance Series heat pump system with Puron refrigerant. Condensing unit to be Carrier model 25HPA542, rated 42,000 BTU/hr (15 SEER). Enclosed coil to be Carrier model CNPVP4221." "Carrier buyer five year labor warranty and ten year parts warranty"
There is nothing about York in the contract or anywhere else. The original installer has made it clear that it is not his problem; he told us to call Carrier until we told him that it was a York part he installed that broke.
I tried to do an AHRI match and did not succeed. There seems to be a knack to using the AHRI.
You say, the York coil should not have been put on the Carrier product. It lowered capacity and efficiency. It wasn't the culprit to the dampness problem. I got that right?
You have given me good information. Much appreciated.
07-14-2012, 05:00 PM #4
Since the contract called for the Carrier coil, he broke it by putting in the York. You should have legal ground there. May take small claims court to get anywhere unfortunately. You also didn't get the warranty coverage you were contracted for. I still think the York 5 year coil warranty should replace the TXV but what good does that do you now? Some mfrs. do not give you a 10 year parts warranty on their outdoor units if you don't have them on a matching coil so you may or may not have a 10 year parts warranty. You do have a mess on your hands. Fortunately you have a contract on your side.
If he put in the contract "15 SEER" he didn't deliver on that either. Certainly not with a York coil but he couldn't give you 15 with a Carrier either. AHRI number for your outdoor unit and the 4221 coil you now have is 3258751.
Getting an attorney involved would likely be more $ than worth but if you know one who would give you some free advice, might see if they think pursuing it is worth it and how to go about it.
07-14-2012, 05:30 PM #5Professional Member*
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
I agree with B.L. You have legal ground for many reasons.
The contractor falsified the SEER. No one can tell what SEER you'll acheive with a mismatched system.
The warranty, if thru Carrier, would be void due to the mismatch.
If the warranty is thru the dealer (many are) go back on him for all of the expenses.
The York coil (assuming it was new) would have a 5 year warranty. Period. Anyone worth their salt should get the part(s) covered.
07-14-2012, 06:01 PM #6Professional Member*
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
07-14-2012, 07:24 PM #7
The contractor doesn't belong in the business. There's good reason to do this. It's deceptive, shows a lock of understanding on how HVAC systems work and disregards all industry standard and good practices. HE must have saved a few dollars using that coil is my only guess, or just is too ignorant to know better.
07-14-2012, 08:55 PM #8Professional Member*
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
Cut the coil up and sell it for scrap and do not use or recommend the shady contractor
07-15-2012, 04:41 AM #9
The contract states a carrier coil. It is his problem, since he knowingly put in the York coil.
I agree with baldie, the TXV was probably the problem all along.Contractor locator map
How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?
07-15-2012, 09:22 AM #10New Guest
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
BaldLoonie, we asked a retired lawyer for a recommendation, but as we suspected, that route will not help us. Here is the lawyers reply:
"Sorry to hear about your problems. Unfortunately, there is no quick and easy solution, and not enough is at stake to warrant legal counsel -- except for possibly sending a demand letter. You have no doubt been damaged, but I see no basis on which you could collect legal fees in addition to damages. And the fees could outstrip the damages."
BL, you wrote, "Some mfrs. do not give you a 10 year parts warranty on their outdoor units if you don't have them on a matching coil so you may or may not have a 10 year parts warranty." Can you give me some ideas of how to find out about whether my Carrier warranty was voided the minute he installed the unmatched coil? All I have are two letters, one from the contractor and one from Carrier which states, "Based on the Optional Extended Warranty coverage you purchased, your standard limited warranty has been enhanced to now cover parts for 10 years." I can't lay my hands on the details.
Thanks for the AHRI number for the 4221. That was the original coil stated in the contract which turned out to be missing. Just last week though, I had it repaired by another company who replaced the York coil with a Carrier CNVP2417ATA. The house feels good, now.
Are these two Carrier coil models -- CNVP2417ATA & CNPVP4221 -- both a fit for Carrier condenser 25HPA542? Not sure if I am borrowing trouble asking the question, but I am a little gun shy now.
I really do appreciate you professionals on this site lending your expertise. We customers can be an ignorant bunch. For example, I looked at that big York coil now sitting on my garage floor. Unlike the outdoor unit that is clearly labeled Carrier, I don't see the York name anywhere on this coil, just a tiny serial number, not to mention the fact that it was all but hidden when it was installed. It took a new contractor to recognize it and tell us. So I thank you all for your valuable information.
George2, you summarized the situation well -- better than I did. SEER & Carrier warranty (dealer warranty was one year, expired), both spelled out in the contract. Here's a question you and others brought up. You said, "The York coil (assuming it was new) would have a 5 year warranty. Period. Anyone worth their salt should get the part(s) covered." Our contractor said he was unable to get the broken York TXV under warranty because of the mixed system. After the original installer insisted it was under York warranty, we asked our guy to try again. He said he had his secretary make lots of calls. We even got a second opinion, and the second contractor said the same. But several of you on this forum say different. When we called the York distributor ourselves, we were first told "No, an unmatched system voids the warranty" and the second time we called to ask them to put it in writing, they said, "Yes, it's covered for parts, no problem!"
Regardless, the hot weather demanded we make a decision, so we pulled the York coil and replaced it with Carrier. I hope we didn't throw our money away! But our contractor was not comfortable standing behind his own work if we decided to keep the unmatched coil and simply replace the TXV.
motoguy128 & catmanacman: Your are both right about the deceptiveness. It is frustrating that we *thought* we researched this purchase thoroughly. We studied up. We chose this deal because (1) Carrier seemed to be a solid brand (2) The warranty was a HUGE factor in our decision (3) The price -- we aren't made of money.
beenthere: I think it's his problem, too, but he insists the York coil replaced the smaller Carrier coil to improve performance. The day after the new system was first installed, I complained that I could not cool the house below 80 degrees. Our old system did much better. I have a cardiac child so AC is important. I was told that everything was fine with the system, and it was too hot outside to expect better. No one else I know endures 80 degrees from an expensive new system, so I did call them often for about two weeks until they returned. *Maybe* they switched coils then; I don't know. During that time I took written notes. On 6/16/2008 I wrote the following, "thermostatic expansion valve." It was the repair they did. It cooled better afterwards (still humid), but not cool enough. However, my needing to nag them and their giving me spin I knew wasn't true caused us to stop doing business with them. We felt like they were poor on repairs and follow up. All contractors are very nice before the deal. It is after they get the money that their reputation is made.
07-15-2012, 10:07 AM #11