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  1. #40
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,321
    To the OP I am sure you are trying to be through and meticulous in your approach but in this conversation you are being very obtuse. You have been told several times that based on your own word this current system maintains temps way beyond design. If your current system will maintain greater than TWENTY DEGREES indoor to outdoor differential and cycle on a degree day IT IS OVERSIZED. A properly sized and designed system SHOULD RUNS CONSTANTLY at or over a design degree day. So in New York lets assume a design degree day is 92* and you can maintain or reach 70* your unit IS NOT UNDERSIZED. If it runs constantly at 92* to maintain 72* then you have a properly sized unit.

    I design for Huston and I design for 75* 50% RH on a 100* day and I do homes over 4000 sq.ft. with under three tons all of the time. If you have an area of your home that is uncomfortable but you can maintain the temps you state YOU HAVE DISTRIBUTION problems not a size issue.

    Just for your edification I do not provide load calculations or material list until a contract is signed. I have had numerous Homeowners take my load calcs and design and have other companies perform the work for less money. They all call back because it does not work because the other company does not have the skills or knowledge to properly install the system. I have even had a few with the temerity to demand that I fix the problem at my cost because I did the design work.

    At this point I would recommend going with the original contractor or find a new contractor DO NOT GO WITH THE FIRST COMPANY they are a dog and pony show contractor.

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    I know you just wished I would go away. What ever happened to earning the business? Let me tell you what happened "Tire Kickers" happened, and just because your not a tire kicker, well you don't strike me as one, we deal with them all the time, I have personally dealt with them for 30 years. I know a company's here in Houston that have spent "over" 3 hrs doing a set of load calculations, just to be called up the next day by the customer saying, we appreciate you coming out, but were going to go with someone else. I mean how long can a normal human work for free and be rejected? I guess if I go to the local steak house and tell them I will need a table for 50 on Friday night @ 7:00 pm, but to "earn my business" could you please cook up my wife and I, a couple of Filet Mignon's and with a couple glasses of Dom Perignon. Our time is valuable also, and the person we have out there doing the load calculation is not working for free, we are paying him, and if it's a tech in 3 hrs "depending on the tech" could be one hundred dollars or more. You can't stereo type businesses, do you pull into your local Shell station and tell the attendant, our company has 20 vehicles and we might possibly start using your station, but to earn my business could you fill up my truck now, it only holds 40 gallons, you think he is going to fill it up? I think not.
    Mr. Bill has hit the nail on the head. You ask what happened to contractor earning your business. Simple still have to but like mr. Bill stated about spending 3 hours with a customer then have them call you back And say thank you for your hard work but we found another contractor that will install the small equipment in our home plus they will due all the other work that you stated for a lot less. How in the world do they know what I am going to do for the customer. Unless the customer told them everything on my estimate? There are contractors that Well say oh yeah we were planing on doing that to what I was.

    More times then that they are just saying that to get the work. If they were going to do everything that My company does then why didn't there estimate state that? Simple they were not going to!!! I have spent my late nights and weekends at customers home per there request due there work schedule figuring out what equipment is best for there homes and addressing comfort concerns. That means that I take time away from my family and life to help them due to there schedule. If that is not earning your business then I don't know what is. I am there before, during and after the installation of there new equipment. An every customer of mine has my personal numbers so if they have any questions I am there to answer them for them.

    My company is located in one on the busy streets in our town with a open door for a customer to come in any time. So If they are in need of anything I am there if they can't reach me for some reason my office is there. I am not hiding and will be there. What more can you ask then for a detailed estimate that I provide on every job with a load cal. To back me up plus how to get a hold of me anytime day, year etc.... Sure our price might be higher but look
    What you are getting.

    Know back to the load on your home. Something that I don't think you have grasped about your current (3) ton system is that it keeps you comfortable regardless of the added square foot that was not figured into the load. Water under the bridge. It has still keep your home warm and cool for 12 years. You said that it has had problems with repairs and I understand that. You might have had builder grade equipment installed or the equipment not installed properly that caused all the problems? Who knows but at the end of the day it has still keep you comfortable all those years!!! Know someone wants to come in a install a bigger system (1) ton more just does not make since. You are smart enough to know that doesn't make since!

    Again as Mr. Bill has stated serval times and I agree we deal with all people with different walks of life, money/budgets etc... We are not
    Saying that we don't have to earn your business because we do end of story. Our job is to come in and help the customer with there decision and make recommendations that will correct the problem, fit there budget and keep there home comfortable. This takes time and knowledge that some other companies don't want to invest. We care about customers and want there new systems to preform as designed, meet there budget and for them not to have any regrets on such a large purchase. I do load cal. On every home and show to the customer but never give them my work until they sign a contract. I hope you see what I mean. I do all the work up front
    Show to the customer and explain so as to give a correct price on the install but I don't give the full report until they sign for us to do the work. The last thing that I want is for them to use my work Against me and say yeah we will install the same thing but will be less. Oh course try can do for less, I did all the work and they use it against me.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    Thank you for all of your suggestions. The company that made this recommendation has an impeccable reputation.

    We think they don't want the job as our job is relatively small in comparison to what they usually do. They told us that they can't get to us until October which of course means they don't want the job. They were very happy to take several thousand $$ over the past few years when I needed service.

    They actually promised me a proposal twice and we waited two weeks to get it. They called me on Thursday and told me they can't get it to me because they are too busy that is also when they told me they can't do the job until October. I raised a S*** Fit with them and told them they were unprofessional, kept us waiting now they say they can't get to it until Oct. when, in fact, their engineer who does the proposals with the owner, told us it would be about 3 weeks (when he was at my house). My private community has 2,300 homes and they have clients in here. I told them that we all talk to one another - which must have frightened them because I received the proposal the next day. Of course they recommended "top of the line" Carrier which I originally told them we did not want. I asked for Carrier's Performance products not Infinity. I also told them that cost was important to us.

    I think they did everything possible to make us go elsewhere but I don't know why they sent someone to our house in the first place if they didn't want the job unless a really big job came up. Then I question why they would put their reputation in jeopardy.

    I will call them to question their recommendation but, after hearing what all of you have to say in addition to common sense, we will go with the second company who did the original installation because they can do it in 3 weeks and I like what they recommended.

    Could they have purposely have made the wrong recommendation to inflate the price to get us to go somewhere else? I'm truly beginning to think this is the case.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,530
    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    Thank you for all of your suggestions. The company that made this recommendation has an impeccable reputation.

    We think they don't want the job as our job is relatively small in comparison to what they usually do. They told us that they can't get to us until October which of course means they don't want the job. They were very happy to take several thousand $$ over the past few years when I needed service.

    They actually promised me a proposal twice and we waited two weeks to get it. They called me on Thursday and told me they can't get it to me because they are too busy that is also when they told me they can't do the job until October. I raised a S*** Fit with them and told them they were unprofessional, kept us waiting now they say they can't get to it until Oct. when, in fact, their engineer who does the proposals with the owner, told us it would be about 3 weeks (when he was at my house). My private community has 2,300 homes and they have clients in here. I told them that we all talk to one another - which must have frightened them because I received the proposal the next day. Of course they recommended "top of the line" Carrier which I originally told them we did not want. I asked for Carrier's Performance products not Infinity. I also told them that cost was important to us.

    I think they did everything possible to make us go elsewhere but I don't know why they sent someone to our house in the first place if they didn't want the job unless a really big job came up. Then I question why they would put their reputation in jeopardy.

    I will call them to question their recommendation but, after hearing what all of you have to say in addition to common sense, we will go with the second company who did the original installation because they can do it in 3 weeks and I like what they recommended.

    Could they have purposely have made the wrong recommendation to inflate the price to get us to go somewhere else? I'm truly beginning to think this is the case.
    I sure would hope not but sounds like something else is going on with the 1st company? I don't what but we installs that have to be put into line but nothing that far off. If they don't want your business they have just had said that weeks ago. Know make sure 2nd contractor does a load cal. And sizes your home properly!!! I Belive you have learned a lot on this site to make common since decision and also some things to ask 2nd contractor. Keep us posted.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    Thank you all again. You have truly been a big help and prevented us from making a mistake. I will keep you posted with the second company and what their load calculation reveals.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    They told us that they can't get to us until October which of course means they don't want the job.
    I didn't think you had said anything unreasonable and brought up legitimate concerns, but this statement has me wondering. Maybe business is that much different in New York but in Florida you can find several companies in your city that are able to install the equipment same day, in peak season. I'd be confident going through every listing in my phone book that every AC contractor in Florida would be able to schedule an install well under 3 weeks, peak season or not. Change-outs are the jobs contractors want, I can't see many walking away from this.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by AJ1534 View Post
    I didn't think you had said anything unreasonable and brought up legitimate concerns, but this statement has me wondering. Maybe business is that much different in New York but in Florida you can find several companies in your city that are able to install the equipment same day, in peak season. I'd be confident going through every listing in my phone book that every AC contractor in Florida would be able to schedule an install well under 3 weeks, peak season or not. Change-outs are the jobs contractors want, I can't see many walking away from this.
    I agree because we also have a house in SW Florida and if I have a problem I can get someone there immediately!!

    I don't know what to think about the first company but I caught them in a lie and said to their office manager "how can you tell me October when your guy was just at my house and told me I would have to wait only three weeks). Of course she said nothing!!! They probably picked up a few big jobs that would bring in a lot more $$ then our job will. Can't understand what else it could be.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    nebraska
    Posts
    1,629
    There's no need to call the first company back to ask questions or complain unless you're entertaining the idea of going without cooling until October. Sign the contract with the original installers and be done with it. I'll also advise you ask about any extended labor warranty that's offered. Saw some of the repair prices listed before they got edited out and at those rates you really-really want labor covered long as possible.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,272

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    You ask "why" a new system? Because ...

    Again, I live in NY and nothing is cheap here.

    By the way, there is no way a 2.5 ton would work in our home!! As I said in an earlier post - "I can get it down to 70 but we "do not remember" if it ran all day to stay there!!!

    In later phases of building in our private community, the builder offered an option of converting the attic to a loft, made the upper hallway bigger and eliminated walls so that you can see, on one side, down into the living area, and not the other side, down into the entry hall.

    It is our believe that the builder never took into consideration how this would affect the original load calculation.

    Again, "we do not know "enough" to determine if the condenser has been straining all of these years to maintain the temperature and its always much warmer upstairs especially because of the three skylights".

    We think the minimum size this home can be is around 1,816 sq. ft., with an open floor plan, open staircase, two story walls, open loft, three skylights.
    Off the top of your head, does that sound like a 2.5 condenser?
    Load might be 20,000 BTU/hr + skylights load + west facing windows load
    A 2.5 ton would work with minimal glass area and ducts that do Not leak.

    3 skylights at 18 square feet each would be about 6,500 BTU/hr mid-day
    If there are 90 square feet of WEST facing windows [6], an additional 6,500 BTU/hr mid to late PM.

    If glass area is less than noted, a 3-ton would be sufficient to cool residence to 18'F less than outside.

    92'F Outside Air
    74'F Inside Air
    Realistic design parameters
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by martyinlincoln View Post
    There's no need to call the first company back to ask questions or complain unless you're entertaining the idea of going without cooling until October. Sign the contract with the original installers and be done with it. I'll also advise you ask about any extended labor warranty that's offered. Saw some of the repair prices listed before they got edited out and at those rates you really-really want labor covered long as possible.
    They already told me 1 year labor and 10 year warranty from Carrier.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    Load might be 20,000 BTU/hr + skylights load + west facing windows load
    A 2.5 ton would work with minimal glass area and ducts that do Not leak.

    3 skylights at 18 square feet each would be about 6,500 BTU/hr mid-day
    If there are 90 square feet of WEST facing windows [6], an additional 6,500 BTU/hr mid to late PM.

    If glass area is less than noted, a 3-ton would be sufficient to cool residence to 18'F less than outside.

    92'F Outside Air
    74'F Inside Air
    Realistic design parameters
    I have to tell you that if its 92 + outside I need it to be cooler than 74 in the house because I have a heat sensitivity. Do I still need larger than a 3 ton?
    I am very anxious for the second company to do a load calculation.
    Is an 18 degree difference normal?

    There were times (when it was working) that we were cold. IN the winter the highest the heat is 72 otherwise we are too warm downstairs and upstairs. When sleeping in the winter we keep it at 65-66. I really don't thing our house is drafty at all.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,872
    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    I agree because we also have a house in SW Florida and if I have a problem I can get someone there immediately!!

    I don't know what to think about the first company but I caught them in a lie and said to their office manager "how can you tell me October when your guy was just at my house and told me I would have to wait only three weeks). Of course she said nothing!!! They probably picked up a few big jobs that would bring in a lot more $$ then our job will. Can't understand what else it could be.
    They are probably firing you as a customer.

    what people don't realize is this is a trade where skill and knowledge is required. Good contractors take pride in their work.....Pride=Personal. I go the extra mile for my customers....until they don't deserve it. Then.....

    "Negative Ghostrider...the pattern is full..."
    Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime.

    Give a man a capacitor, doesn't know what to do. Teach a man to install it, now he knows everything.

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    winnipeg
    Posts
    1,330
    load calcs,..... not for me...... always undersized
    it was working.... played with it.... now its broke.... whats the going hourly rate for HVAC repair

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