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  1. #27
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    Dec 2002
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    Houston,Tx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    Mr. Bill: we don't operate the way your customers do. I'm happy to say that we are financially stable enough to be able to make a decision that is based on quality installation, reputation, professionalism, the correct configuration and "not" just who is offering us the best price.
    You know we always charge more if customers don't have any sense of humor.
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  2. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
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    71
    Mr. Bill I have a great sense of humor but I was getting the feeling that because price was not the deciding factor, you were thinking I was full of it!

    To me: bad installation and wrong recommendation means lots of $$$$$ in the long run.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
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    4,607
    Maybe the second company that did the original install did a load calc on the first install and you have stayed comfy all these years, i would trust the facts more than a new load calc

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
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    1,529
    Quote Originally Posted by catmanacman View Post
    Maybe the second company that did the original install did a load calc on the first install and you have stayed comfy all these years, i would trust the facts more than a new load calc
    Know that is very possible! I would ask the org. Poster to use a little common sense. I your current (3) ton has done the job for many years & maintains 72 when why in the world would you let someone lead you to alive that you need to increase the size of your system?

    It could be that he other company is not imputing something right into there load, trying to stir you away from your current company by calming your system is undersized, etc... Who knows but without either one providing you a load in writing then you really don't know.

    Just remember that your current system per you is a (3) ton and has kept your home comfortable for years but now you need a (4) ton.. Just does not make since at all hints (common sense) & bigger is not better as others have also stated!

    Footnote: I can make any home look like that it needs a (4) ton system, it boils down to what date you input into the load software.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,233

    Confused Total Life Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    First let me thank all of you for helping us out over the past two years. We have decided to no longer sink money into our current 12 + years old a/c and heating system and go with something new and better. Following are my questions:

    We received 3 proposals from 3 different companies. Only one of them came to our home and spent 1 1/2 hours examining all duct work, inside unit and outdoor unit and measured the entire home including 2 walk in closets and laundry room. They then gave us a proposal stating that our 3 ton condenser was undersized. I first asked them for our sq. footage and they came back with 1,930. We were shocked because the builder told us it was 1,666.

    If it was not include it bring the sq. foot up to maybe 1,860.
    What gives you the impression that a 12-year old system might be "old" and in need of replacement ?

    I don't see any discussion here that " New and better" can actually
    be quantified.

    One might guess that 2.5 to 3 ton unit would be sufficient for a house less than 30 years old unless it is " a leaker" / drafty.
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  6. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
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    71
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    What gives you the impression that a 12-year old system might be "old" and in need of replacement ?

    I don't see any discussion here that " New and better" can actually
    be quantified.

    One might guess that 2.5 to 3 ton unit would be sufficient for a house less than 30 years old unless it is " a leaker" / drafty.
    You ask "why" a new system? Because in the past two years we have spent over $ on repairs not only for the a/c but for the furnace. A part is always going and lets face it parts + labor is $$$$$$. Why in the world would we want to sink any more money into an a/c heating system that is low end and going on 13 years old? Maybe you would but I have a major problem when I have to chancel my flight out on Christmas because I wake up to a house with no heat. Then in March I had to cancel my vacation and flight (pay major penalties) because again I woke up to a home with no heat. Both of which were completely different parts. Not to mention the numerous times this a/c has shut down and the the money I have paid to get people in her to diagnose it and repair it. Again, I live in NY and nothing is cheap here.

    By the way, there is no way a 2.5 ton would work in our home!! As I said in an earlier post - "I can get it down to 70 but we "do not remember" if it ran all day to stay there!!! We are very much aware that "bigger is not better" and we completely understand why.

    If you read my earlier posts, I explained that when the a/c heating was designed for this model home there the square footage was less. i.e. there was no loft, no skylights, upstairs hall was smaller with "no" open walls etc.
    The original installer was asked to designed the proper unit based on the above. In later phases of building in our private community, the builder offered an option of converting the attic to a loft, made the upper hallway bigger and eliminated walls so that you can see, on one side, down into the living area, and not the other side, down into the entry hall.

    It is our believe that the builder never took into consideration how this would affect the original load calculation.

    Again, "we do not know "enough" to determine if the condenser has been straining all of these years to maintain the temperature and its always much warmer upstairs especially because of the three skylights".

    In addition, from the moment we moved in we have had problems with the a/c. Every so often it would blow out warm air. We were told by the people who installed it to just shut it down for a half hour and turn it back on. "he told us it was normal for that to happen once in a while". We did as he suggested and it continued to work. It would happen maybe 3 times over the course of each summer.

    We think the minimum size this home can be is around 1,816 sq. ft., with an open floor plan, open staircase, two story walls, open loft, three skylights.
    Off the top of your head, does that sound like a 2.5 condenser?
    Last edited by beenthere; 07-15-2012 at 11:21 AM. Reason: price

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    nebraska
    Posts
    1,628
    A house that has the correct sized AC will run for hours and hours when it gets hot out so not remembering if it ran all day or not has no bearing. The fact that it could maintain desired temp means the 3 ton is plenty big enough. The company that suggested a 4 ton,that did the load calc, had to have input some wrong data.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    [QUOTE=duckman06;13727861]Know that is very possible! I would ask the org. Poster to use a little common sense. I your current (3) ton has done the job for many years & maintains 72 when why in the world would you let someone lead you to alive that you need to increase the size of your system?

    It could be that he other company is not imputing something right into there load, trying to stir you away from your current company by calming your system is undersized, etc... Who knows but without either one providing you a load in writing then you really don't know.

    Just remember that your current system per you is a (3) ton and has kept your home comfortable for years but now you need a (4) ton.. Just does not make since at all hints (common sense) & bigger is not better as others have also stated!

    The reason I started this topic is because I was shocked at the recommendation. I had narrowed it down to two reputable companies that we wanted proposals from. The first company, who did not install it but whom we have been using to service our a/c and heating for the past few years, is the company who came in and did the load calculation and stated in their proposal that our unit was undersized.

    The second company, who did the initial installation when all the homes in our community were built: provided me with a proposal and told me they would come in and do a load calculation "after" we sign a contract. They did the original load calculation "before" the builder began offering the loft option for this home which in turn added a larger hallway and opened up the walls on both side of the hall so you can look down into the living areas. Because of this, I told the second company that its very possible the original design may need to be changed and how could they give me an accurate proposal if they are basing it on what was originally put in here.

    Some of you have stated that your not going to go out and do a load calculation so a customer can then get quotes based on your work.

    What ever happened to "earning the business"!!!!! You mean to tell me that a potential customers is expected to spend $ + and its not worth it for you to do a load calculation? How do you know if your recommending the correct system? How do you know if the original installer put in the correct system? How do you know if the owner is correct with the sq. footage of their home? and most importantly: How in the world can you recommend the "correct" system without doing a load calculation "first"? If your concerned, why don't you charge to do it then tell the customer if they do business with you it will be refunded? Either way, I still ask "what about earning someones business"?

    We are not ignorant enough to call 10 suppliers just to price shop. My number one priority is a reputable company, who does great installs and if out of those few companies one can give me a better price then he will get the business. Where I live, I don't expect to see a significant difference in price.

    I think before I spend this kind of money I am entitled to see the load calculation and justification for the recommended system. To be told that "after" I sign a contract they will come and do a load calculation is BS. Suppose the configuration changes and its more money and I don't want to spend it or I can't get any more opinions because I'm not stuck in this contract? It sounds A** backwards if you ask me.

    Lastly, I don't see anything unusual with getting second and third opinions. Even if its a company that you have dealt with and seem to trust, I will still get a second and third opinion.
    Last edited by beenthere; 07-15-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    4,307
    Here is some information for you, the article was written by the author and co author of Manual J8. Pay special attention to the last sentence on the last page.

    Dividing square ft by a magic number "like 500" to arrive at tonnage is not doing a load! What would your needed tonnage be with this magic formula?

    As I said earlier my company always does at minimum a manual J block load and I ALWAYS show the customer. IMHO if a salesman is not showing you his load he did a dog and pony show and used the magic formula. As I and others have said it sounds like your present system is properly sized if not over-sized.
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  10. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    suburbs outside New York City
    Posts
    71
    Thanks, I will definitely read it. I also feel that by getting a load calculation from the second company, we can put this issue to bed

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    15,825
    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    What ever happened to "earning the business"!!!!! You mean to tell me that a potential customers is expected to spend $$ + and its not worth it for you to do a load calculation?.
    I know you just wished I would go away. What ever happened to earning the business? Let me tell you what happened "Tire Kickers" happened, and just because your not a tire kicker, well you don't strike me as one, we deal with them all the time, I have personally dealt with them for 30 years. I know a company's here in Houston that have spent "over" 3 hrs doing a set of load calculations, just to be called up the next day by the customer saying, we appreciate you coming out, but were going to go with someone else. I mean how long can a normal human work for free and be rejected? I guess if I go to the local steak house and tell them I will need a table for 50 on Friday night @ 7:00 pm, but to "earn my business" could you please cook up my wife and I, a couple of Filet Mignon's and with a couple glasses of Dom Perignon. Our time is valuable also, and the person we have out there doing the load calculation is not working for free, we are paying him, and if it's a tech in 3 hrs "depending on the tech" could be one hundred dollars or more. You can't stereo type businesses, do you pull into your local Shell station and tell the attendant, our company has 20 vehicles and we might possibly start using your station, but to earn my business could you fill up my truck now, it only holds 40 gallons, you think he is going to fill it up? I think not.
    Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 07-15-2012 at 11:59 AM. Reason: edited quote
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
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  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,704
    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post
    OK, someone misunderstood me here. Not "everyone did a load calculation one one!! It is now narrowed down between them and another company. The second company did the original installation.

    Now that the first company came back and told me our 3 ton is undersized and we need 4 ton and that could mean changing pipes and going into the wall etc how in the world can we accept the second companies proposal when they didn't do a load calculation and they recommended replacing our unit with the same 3 ton.

    We bought the home while being build and the model we bought did not include and option loft with skylights, expanded upstairs hall with open walls on each side. This was an option that the builder offered after several of our particular models were already built. We think he later offered the attic space conversion to a loft and the things I mentioned above and never took into consideration how this "new" option would affect the current a/c heating.

    Even though the second proposal is from the company that did all of the installations and put in our current 3 ton condenser, I told them that the first company said it was undersized. This is why I want the second company go to in here and calculate the load and provide with an accurate proposal.

    As I said, its not all about money for us. Its getting a great installation and the "correct" configuration for our home

    Second company may still have their original; load calcs, and be using them. Along with if they asked you if it could maintain temp. They may have decided their original calcs are still valid.

    When a company says your current unit is under sized. When it was maintaining set temp. Thats a good indication that they fudged the load calc to meet what they thought it should have by square footage.
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  13. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida
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    41
    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorkMinute View Post

    We think the minimum size this home can be is around 1,816 sq. ft., with an open floor plan, open staircase, two story walls, open loft, three skylights.
    Off the top of your head, does that sound like a 2.5 condenser?
    It sounds like there is a lot of confusion on what the actual square footage is. Why don't you measure this yourself? You have one company saying its 1900 plus and another calling it 1600 plus, someone is wrong.

    I agree with most others, upsizing doesn't occur often when load calcs are done, the 3 ton cooled fine, I would have some concerns.

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