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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    524
    Actually, Brother, just as a Plumber isn't a Pipefitter - we aren't Pipefitters. Right now the U.A. is looking to reclassify us as "HVACR Techs", in either Construction or Service. It sound good to me, but will it work? As maxster said, in NYC, Steam/Pipefitters do the line sets. Usually in most smaller jobs, Service does the line sets.
    If Source ever joined the U.A. for example, has 35% of their business as Construction. So would they have over 350 "Construction - HVACR Techs" and over 700 "Service -HVACR Techs" or simply classify everybody as "Service"?

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    51
    More classifications more lower pay scales. Pipefitter installs it a Pipefitter repairs it. United we bargain divided we beg. Seems like a moot point new guy running HVAC for UA came out of Cincinatti they had a lower scale for Service. So I'm sure UA will have some f-ed up agreement approved by Johnson Controls. Learn how to weld fellow HvAC/R Fitters its the only thing UA officers respect.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    524
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyhat 597 View Post
    More classifications more lower pay scales. Pipefitter installs it a Pipefitter repairs it. United we bargain divided we beg. Seems like a moot point new guy running HVAC for UA came out of Cincinatti they had a lower scale for Service. So I'm sure UA will have some f-ed up agreement approved by Johnson Controls. Learn how to weld fellow HvAC/R Fitters its the only thing UA officers respect.
    Out here in AZ, the "Construction - Industrial Jm" in Plumbing, Pipefitting and Pipe Welding is only $1/Hr. over the "Service - Applied Jm" in HVACR. Applied Service Jm is Chillers, Boilers and over 100TR. Even though it's only $1/Hr., it's still more money for the guys that installed it than it is for the guy that maintains and repairs it. Not as bad as NYC, where the Steam/Pipefitter and Pipe Welder Jm are $12-13/Hr. more than HVACR Jm. Ridiculous. Hey, if JC or any other signatory wants to lock in guys as Service Tradesmen or Service Craftsmen, that's them.
    As we stand, the Tucson area Service Jm is $3.30/Hr. behind the rest of the state. Being all one Local statewide it shouldn't exceed $2.50/Hr., just wait until the contract's up. I've been talking to the Hussmann, Linc, McQuay, and Trane guys about organizing. I've even talked to the Source guys. I'll tell you what though, people just talk without knowing. One of the Source guys told me he's never been in the Union and doesn't know anybody in the Union' but had the audacity to say we (Source) pay higher than Union wages. Sorry, but I just had to let him know!

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    51
    Yeh NY is F-ed up. 597 merged with 422 Joliet. They had a bad agreement for Residential 1/2 top scale 5 tons and under no retirement bennie. Now 597 OK it. All officers except one worked big jobs. Service Agent came in as a welder (at top scale) then ended up with refer shop. Agreement is disgusting you really dont need a union to make $22.50 to fix A.C. In Chicago. What young talented person would want to do this when rhey could learn how to weld and make more?

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    524
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyhat 597 View Post
    Yeh NY is F-ed up. 597 merged with 422 Joliet. They had a bad agreement for Residential 1/2 top scale 5 tons and under no retirement bennie. Now 597 OK it. All officers except one worked big jobs. Service Agent came in as a welder (at top scale) then ended up with refer shop. Agreement is disgusting you really dont need a union to make $22.50 to fix A.C. In Chicago. What young talented person would want to do this when rhey could learn how to weld and make more?
    True that. I understand your HVACR C-Card Service is the Metal Trades Resi./Light Com. equivalent. The whole A, B, C-Card is silly. Miami has a similar classification - R1, R2, R3, etc. My sources tell me Chicago Trane has their guys about 20% over scale wage equivalent in order to try and retain their guys. The 597 has tried to organize their office several times, it hasn't happened yet so they try to lure the Trane guys away to the big 597 signatories.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    51
    Yep 1 vote decided it. Trane guys wanted vacation and sick time covered in contract. Business Manager tried to explain that 7000 members don't have that not going to change it for 20 new members. I was there when BM brought them through our school I believe they saw the talent in our Local and that talent now could work for Trane cutting in on their gig. 597 picked off a few guys for contractors. Whole experience pissed off BM. Our old BM said Service guys were one step above Scab Labor. After the failed Trane deal I believe our current BM sees it that way also. Talking to some of our HVAC/R Members they are such "shop guys" I think he's right, some of them need directions to Union Hall to vote.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    524
    I told the Tucson Trane guys if vacation, holidays and sick time is in the Trane Bldg Svcs policy and if it doesn't exclude Collective Bargaining Unit employees, then Trane can't take that time away.
    Even if Chicago Trane is paying $55/Hr., that still doesn't consider the deducted from the check fringes. Oh, 6% in matching Trane stock, come on.
    Most Trane guys can calculate for flow, clearances, etc. , but non-Union Trane guys can't seem to calculate what's better for them in the end!

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyhat 597 View Post
    Chicago Pipe Fitters 597 had no HVAC Apprenticeship just a Construction Apprenticeship. Some of us Service guys got lucky over the years and served a Construction Apprenticeship. What 597 Service Contractors used was the C & B card or Metal Trades Journeyman for a half assed Apprenticeship. Training at night and advancement goverened by shop. As opposed to Construction Apprenticeship which was held the day and monitored by JATC. 2004 I was hired full time as an HVAC/R instructor. A formal Apprentice was started. I went to 420 (Philly) & 601 (Milwaukee) Spoke with some 638 hands in New York. Set up program equal in pay training hours with Construction. Apprentices came out as Building Trades Journeyman. No limit on type of work. Ran good for a few years but could not eliminate C & B card program. Contractors wore down Agent for lower service scale like the rest of the Country. Now HVAC Apprentices come out at "B" scale. Not a whimper at Union Meeting because of minimal Service members at meeting. So in protest I left the Full Time Position and went back in Service Truck. Brother U.A. HVAC/R there should only be two classifications of Pipe Fitter; Apprentice & Journeyman it's our own fault. Go to the meetings call Bull**** on split scale. How does two men screwing 2" gas lines together worth more than the guy who can repair the equipment that those gas lines feed?
    This is what I don't get about 597.

    The people that fix the equipment have a lower pay scale, and I would bet that the service techs have to provide way more tools than a building trades journeyman.

    Is the lower pay scale to appease the contractors?

    What is the likelyhood of going BTJ and working service?

    Is the 597 "Metal Trades Journeyman" the same as the "HVAC Service" program?

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    51
    Originally in 2005 at inception of HvAC Apprenticeship HVAC/R and Construction Apprentices after 4 year and 1 year on Journeyman permit (1 year at scale & Bennies stillassigned to Contractor) Apprentices used to come out with an "A" BTJ card. Now HVAC Apprentices will come out with a Metal Trades Journeyman Card "B" card. (Construction Apprenticed unaffected) If they are worthy after 2 years Contractor can make them an "A" card. Union bowed to Contractor pressure. Service Members don't stick together nor do they vote. BTJ construction Apprenticeship highly unlikely you will work Service. You will become an excellent Welder. Contractors and Union treat Welders like the Gods that they are. You will get paid top scale as early as your 3rd year if you are making X-ray welds. Hard as non-Union tries they cannot achieve the level and proficiency of a 597 trained welder. They take the top talent at entry level (only an idiot would opt for HVAC being less money and providing $2000 K in Tools). They weed out the losers. HVAC contractors refuse to launch losers they like untalented unmotivated life long "B" cards. "Change enough parts, put in enough gas eventually it will work"
    As long as it's T&M who cares. The unit will run right at some point.
    A bad welder; try as he might cannot make a bad weld look good

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Jimmyhat-

    Could you PM me?

    Thanks

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    51
    Dont know what PM is
    My email billwren20@yahoo.com

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    "PM" = private message.

    You may want to have a moderator remove your email from the post. You can put an email address in your profile page.

    At the top left of the page, there is a "private messages" button. You have to enable it in the user control panel.

    I think only pro members have this feature.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    51
    Thanks figured it out afterword

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