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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    8
    Originally posted by kevinmac
    First you cannot speak manufacturer to manufacturer. You must speak model of one manufacturer against the model of another manufacturer. Each manufacturer makes a value line up to their high end line. So without knowing what the contractor proposed and what you asked of in a Rheem, there is no debate.

    For instance if the contractor is giving you a price on the upper line of Rheem and it is the same price as the low end models of Trane, well then I would go Rheem!

    [Edited by kevinmac on 08-07-2006 at 01:34 PM]
    I hear what you're saying, but I did indicate in the title of my post that I was questioning the difference between a Trane XR13 and a Rheem Classic 13? I understand that the Trane XR13 is a mid-line unit. Is this not the case with the Rheem Classic 13?

    I have been using the search feature and this is a great site for information. There certainly do seem to be strong alliances with certain brands.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    230
    Should we explain the differance between a auto reset limit and a manual reset limit. Have you seen a spine fin coil? you should, Then you decide which is best, (Spine fins has many times surface area than straight fins)


    Spine fin coils are more restrictive and need more airflow across the outdoor coil I.E. Larger outdoor fan motors and steeper pitch outdoor blades.

    All units have there pro's and cons

    There are alot of tranewashed people on this site.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    8
    I really appreciate all the feedback as this is a learning experience for me. Here was a great link to an article which discussed the pros and cons of reciprocating versus scroll compressors.

    http://www.bristolcompressors.com/in...te%20Paper.pdf

    The following excerpt seemed to make sense to me:

    "Real-world conditions can sometimes drive compression ratios to levels outside the compressor operating envelope. Reciprocating machines are routinely qualified at compression ratios as high as 14:1 and are expected to operate at this condition indefinitely without damage. Scroll compressors cannot operate at higher than about 7:1,
    which is just at the edge of the published operating envelope. Therefore, to protect the scroll compressor against this potential failure mode, external pressure or other controls are often needed, which drives up applied cost. In loss-of-charge conditions, the scroll is more susceptible to damage because the scroll set is lubricated by oil entrained in the gas flow. A reciprocating compressor can operate indefinitely with loss of charge without mechanical damage because the lube system continues to operate independently of mass flow. Also, the reciprocating compressor uses return gas flow directly across the internal line break protector so it is much more sensitive to loss of charge and other out-of-control
    conditions than the scroll. While a loss of charge or some other condition that results in excessive compression ratio would eventually be noticed by the homeowner due to lack
    of cooling or an abnormally high heating bill, the damage to a scroll compressor may already be done. The reciprocating machine is better able to handle these conditions without expensive external controls.

    Scroll compressors are designed for a particular optimized compression ratio and are much more sensitive to changes in compression ratio and potential instability at conditions away from this optimized point. Reciprocating machines have valves that operate effectively over a wide range of compression ratios, as is seen in real-world application, with no concern for the effect of over or under compression. A rapid change in compression ratio is seen routinely in the defrost mode in heat pumps. Since scroll
    compressors rely on speed and compression ratio to control the scroll stability, this rapid shift causes scroll instability and annoying sound levels during the initiation of the defrost cycle with resulting stress on the mechanical components."

    So I guess from what I'm understanding, scroll compressors (in units with 3.5 tons or less according to the link) have less moving parts, are quieter than reciprocating compressors, but operate within smaller paramaters than reciprocating compressors, and are more susceptible to damage in loss-of-charge conditions as they are self lubricated?

    Also, regarding spine fin coils versus straight fin coils; spine fin coils have a greater heat exchange surface over straight fin coils, can be less prone to coolant leaks, but are more susceptible to damage?

    Am I on the right track. What a lot for someone to take in when considering a unit!



  4. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    In your area you should be looking at higher SEER systems,the cost difference is paid for in monthly electric savings.

    Plus higher SEER system often include variable speed motors and controls to dehumidify as well as cool.

    9/1/2006 ,rebates on Carrier ,Trane ,etc., high end products will likely be in effect.Might want to call Caldeco Mechanical,or Nuccio when the rebates are back.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
    Posts
    2,905
    Originally posted by eabtampa


    The following excerpt seemed to make sense to me:

    "Real-world conditions can sometimes drive compression ratios to levels outside the compressor operating envelope. Reciprocating machines are routinely qualified at compression ratios as high as 14:1 and are expected to operate at this condition indefinitely without damage. Scroll compressors cannot operate at higher than about 7:1,
    which is just at the edge of the published operating envelope. Therefore, to protect the scroll compressor against this potential failure mode, external pressure or other controls are often needed, which drives up applied cost. In loss-of-charge conditions, the scroll is more susceptible to damage because the scroll set is lubricated by oil entrained in the gas flow. A reciprocating compressor can operate indefinitely with loss of charge without mechanical damage because the lube system continues to operate independently of mass flow. Also, the reciprocating compressor uses return gas flow directly across the internal line break protector so it is much more sensitive to loss of charge and other out-of-control
    conditions than the scroll. While a loss of charge or some other condition that results in excessive compression ratio would eventually be noticed by the homeowner due to lack
    of cooling or an abnormally high heating bill, the damage to a scroll compressor may already be done. The reciprocating machine is better able to handle these conditions without expensive external controls.

    Scroll compressors are designed for a particular optimized compression ratio and are much more sensitive to changes in compression ratio and potential instability at conditions away from this optimized point. Reciprocating machines have valves that operate effectively over a wide range of compression ratios, as is seen in real-world application, with no concern for the effect of over or under compression. A rapid change in compression ratio is seen routinely in the defrost mode in heat pumps. Since scroll
    compressors rely on speed and compression ratio to control the scroll stability, this rapid shift causes scroll instability and annoying sound levels during the initiation of the defrost cycle with resulting stress on the mechanical components."
    Given that york owns bristol - a manufacturer which uses recip compressors where ever possible to cut costs (just take a look at their builder's grade line), I don't believe that (most likely bull) ****.





    [Edited by amd on 08-08-2006 at 05:46 PM]

  6. #19
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,338
    If Spine Fins are so good, why does Trane have trouble with higher SEER.

    NO coil only match with a 14 SEER unit gets over 13 SEER. Yet many other brands can get 15 SEER with just a coil and standard blower. I used to think it was the old recip holding them back but now that most sizes of XR14 and XL14i are scroll, that isn't the case. So what is it? I remember when the XL14 first came out, many sizes used plate fin coils so it must be the Spine Fin that hurts it.

    Copeland also makes a lot of smaller recip compressors. Goodman 13s are Copeland recip to 3 tons though I heard a shortage may drive them back to Bristol. Some of the Allied (Lennox division) brands use Copeland recips in smaller sizes too.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,366
    Originally posted by amd
    Originally posted by eabtampa


    "
    Given that Bristol owns york - a manufacturer which uses recip compressors where ever possible to cut costs (just take a look at their builder's grade line), I don't believe that (most likely bull) ****.




    Bristol doesn't own York.

    Likes like saying Copeland owns Carrier.
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  8. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
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    2,905
    Originally posted by beenthere
    Originally posted by amd
    Originally posted by eabtampa


    "
    Given that Bristol owns york - a manufacturer which uses recip compressors where ever possible to cut costs (just take a look at their builder's grade line), I don't believe that (most likely bull) ****.




    Bristol doesn't own York.

    Likes like saying Copeland owns Carrier.
    um, that wouldn't explain why they have a link right to bristol on their website. http://www.york.com/

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Greater Philadelphia Area
    Posts
    124
    Nothing stops a Trane... But try starting one!

    LOL... joking of course, I have nothing against Trane quality.

    Considering the life expectancy of both types of coils, in my opinion the only real advantage of a spine fin is in salt air conditions. I'll take straight fins myself.
    Spine fins make superior grass catchers though.
    I've recently installed a few ICP systems (Arcoaire, Heil, Tempstar, etc.) with Copeland scrolls and comfort alert. I was very pleased with the quality of construction and also very pleased with performance. They were all accurate to the decimal point as to what the specs called for. Quiet as a mouse and outstanding cabinet strength and design. Service friendly design also.
    But to be fair, I live in a home that has the much hated Goodman brand in it. Not one single problem in 12 years. It runs perfectly and isn't vibrating around my yard. Yes it's got a cheap cabinet, but I'm not changing it until I have a real reason to. So I'm not partial to any particular name brand but I have no problem with alot of the names that might be considered middle of the road. To me, names aren't as important as what they're made of, so it's good that you're doing your research. Educated consumers are the best customers. Most important is a good contractor though. You will get what you pay for. Best wishes.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,338
    York owns Bristol, not the other way around. Other than the Inertia, I've had no problems with Bristol compressors. Probably had more warranty failures on a big orange recip than a little black one.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kingsport, Tennessee
    Posts
    649

    York & Bristol

    York is presently trying to sell its Bristol Compressor Division.! Scroll Technologies , the joint venture between Carrier & Bristol has alraedy been sold. It was sold to Danfoss.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,366
    Originally posted by BaldLoonie
    York owns Bristol, not the other way around. Other than the Inertia, I've had no problems with Bristol compressors. Probably had more warranty failures on a big orange recip than a little black one.
    You beat me to it.
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  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    435
    "Trane has problem with higher SEER", not so sure I understand that. The XL19i can get upto 19.5 SEER depending on airhandler and size configuration. This is no different than any other manufacturer. Please elaborate?

    [Edited by kevinmac on 08-09-2006 at 10:55 AM]

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